Beloved children or guillible pets?

[gambit]

While sitting in yet another of my schools weekly chapel sessions, I noticed a very recurring theme. In prayer, song, testimony, everything; Christians constantly thank God for saving us from our sins, with Jesus. What I dont understand is, why have you seemed to forget that it was God that gave such an unforgiving consequence for sin? In the Bible, it is God that threw us from Eden. It is God that sends us to Hell, or rather, lets us go there and it is God that created Satan. I can understand we would be thankful that a deity didn't destroy us, considering he could do it very easily; but are we so pathetic as to just ignore the fact that it is he who does it to us in the first place, and then we praise him as if he saved us from some great evil?

Next question for you Christians, why is it you believe God is so pure of heart and uncorruptable? I know the Bible doesn't give a solid statement of the meaning of life, but it leans very much so to the idea that we are here for "God's glory". If God is so pure, and modest, why would he need us for his glory? Why would he need to show off his glory at all? Is there another God in another galaxy far away, making fun of (y)our God? Too me it sounds like God has a superiority complex and doesnt want to admit it. Isn't it a bit silly to think we were created and that we go through all these tests of faith, all this pain, just cause he loves us?

Also, how can you sit with a straight and sincere face and say "My God loves me with all his heart."? If you look at Gods actions in simple terms and compared him to someone like your parents (or someone who truly loves you) would you honestly and without question, believe he does? Sure he might love us on a degree that certain people love their pets. They enjoy playing with them, and raising them, but when they get sick/injured; some people have no qualms with putting them down and moving on.

Which all leads to my point. IMO we seem like the guillible and mediocre pet. The dog that simply loves his master cause he gives him water and scratches his head. Just like dogs, we have the "free will" to do "everything we want" inside the house.. until we dont. If we run out, we're punished/disciplined. If we do bad things in the house, we're punished/disciplined. If we do something the master doesnt like, we're punished/disciplined. As pets we should obey our master, but as humans shouldn't we be smart enough to look at him and basically say "This time, you're wrong." Like a child to parents, parents generally know what they're talking about, but sometimes they just have their metaphorical head up their ass in authority.

Shouldn't humans have a backbone, and not live in fear under the higher power?

I'd prefer any Christians to respond, but anyone can throw in their two cents.

[The Dude]

I was speaking to a girlfriend of mine from Gdansk, Poland. We were discussing religion. While I don't believe in anything, I don't exclude anything either. She however, says she does believe in a god but not the god that we are raised to have faith in.

She put it in a very interesting way when she said this:
"I don't think that if a god has made us, he would specifically care for us that much. I prefer to think of him not as a patron but as a painter. Someone who fills a canvas with the contents of his mind and then when he's done moves on to the next canvas and puts the earlier one on file."

To me that actually was the most logical way of approaching god. If he has made us, why would he specifically care for us and why would we have to answer to him? Because he's omnipotent? No, that's too simple.

[gambit]

I was speaking to a girlfriend of mine from Gdansk, Poland. We were discussing religion. While I don't believe in anything, I don't exclude anything either. She however, says she does believe in a god but not the god that we are raised to have faith in.

She put it in a very interesting way when she said this:
"I don't think that if a god has made us, he would specifically care for us that much. I prefer to think of him not as a patron but as a painter. Someone who fills a canvas with the contents of his mind and then when he's done moves on to the next canvas and puts the earlier one on file."

To me that actually was the most logical way of approaching god. If he has made us, why would he specifically care for us and why would we have to answer to him? Because he's omnipotent? No, that's too simple.

That does seem very logical but there is a flaw.

The whole "obey me or go to hell" thing kind of coencides. While I understand if he was as so, he'd want his privelaged to live in his "Kingdom" but if not he would just leave them be no?

[Strattios]

Personally I only view God as a creator. He made Earth and most things on it and then moved on. Sort of like making an animal habitat and then not maintaining it.

[Playfishpaste]

I was speaking to a girlfriend of mine from Gdansk, Poland. We were discussing religion. While I don't believe in anything, I don't exclude anything either. She however, says she does believe in a god but not the god that we are raised to have faith in.

She put it in a very interesting way when she said this:
"I don't think that if a god has made us, he would specifically care for us that much. I prefer to think of him not as a patron but as a painter. Someone who fills a canvas with the contents of his mind and then when he's done moves on to the next canvas and puts the earlier one on file."

To me that actually was the most logical way of approaching god. If he has made us, why would he specifically care for us and why would we have to answer to him? Because he's omnipotent? No, that's too simple.

How is that the most logical way to approach god? Creativity and minds are human concept, it would be illogical to apply them to god.

At the same time, approaching god in a logical manner in the first place is silly, in christianity anyway, considering he is above logic.

[The Dude]

How is that the most logical way to approach god? Creativity and minds are human concept, it would be illogical to apply them to god.

At the same time, approaching god in a logical manner in the first place is silly, in christianity anyway, considering he is above logic.

Because the assumption that god exists solely for us and we exist solely for him is about as egocentrical as it gets.

Besides, how can you believe that god is above logic anyway. If you genuinely believe that that is true then you also believe that he could recreate in real life the drawings of M.C. Escher. And when you start to believe -that-, well... need I explain?

[gambit]

How is that the most logical way to approach god? Creativity and minds are human concept, it would be illogical to apply them to god.

At the same time, approaching god in a logical manner in the first place is silly, in christianity anyway, considering he is above logic.

What? God is above logic?

Alright thats just plain silly. Nothing is above logic. It doesn't matter that you may or may not be the most powerful being in the universe, and that you may have created us, you're never above logic. Yes sometimes the illogical approach is necessary, but your never ABOVE it. That's like saying gravity is more important than it's own planet.

[Playfishpaste]

I'm afraid in christianity god is not considered as gravity.

Look at everything, and I mean, everything, literally. All logical ideas, people, and things, inside of a box. God is outside of that box.

[gambit]

I'm afraid in christianity god is not considered as gravity.

The point was, I dont see how God could be above logic. Just cause it's made/discovered by humans, that doesn't mean it cant be right.

Look at everything, and I mean, everything, literally. All logical ideas, people, and things, inside of a box. God is outside of that box.

Can you explain how God is outside the box of logic? Besides, God is in his own box.

[Bovril]

So God is a sort of nameless, unidentifiable creative principle? Or just some guy who doodles when he's bored?

[The Dude]

So God is a sort of nameless, unidentifiable creative principle? Or just some guy who doodles when he's bored?

Might well be the latter. After all, are we any different? If we're supposedly created in god's image, then we should look at how we treat our own creations to get a feeling for how he treats us.

Do you still spend your time studying the drawings you made as a child? The posts you've written three years ago? The discussions you've had and the opinions you've presented when you were a little kid?

Do you still think about the lego houses you've built, or the time spent tinkering on your PC to make it a better gaming platform? There are so many things you've created in your life that you probably don't even remember half of them.

Why would god be any different?

Now that I think about it, this could very well become the dominant mindset of organised religion over the coming centuries. The last phase of religion before it completely fades.

[Oswald von Wolkenstein]

Even before you get to "There is no God" -- which you might not get to -- I think everyone should at least get to -- "The God presented by world religions is a hoax."

[Legionem Insanis]

Even before you get to "There is no God" -- which you might not get to -- I think everyone should at least get to -- "The God presented by world religions is a hoax."

I think there is a human need for faith.
Hopefully the human race is getting better about being exploited by it.

[The Dude]

Even before you get to "There is no God" -- which you might not get to -- I think everyone should at least get to -- "The God presented by world religions is a hoax."

It'll be a while before anyone is even willing to listen to such a claim though. Organised religion is still deeply rooted in our culture. It'll take a couple of centuries before reason is able to take over.

I think there is a human need for faith.
Hopefully the human race is getting better about being exploited by it.

It's highly likely to me that after First Contact, most organised religion will quickly collapse. I hope I'll live to see that day but I'm somewhat afraid I won't.

[Mathais]

While sitting in yet another of my schools weekly chapel sessions, I noticed a very recurring theme. In prayer, song, testimony, everything; Christians constantly thank God for saving us from our sins, with Jesus. What I dont understand is, why have you seemed to forget that it was God that gave such an unforgiving consequence for sin? In the Bible, it is God that threw us from Eden. It is God that sends us to Hell, or rather, lets us go there and it is God that created Satan. I can understand we would be thankful that a deity didn't destroy us, considering he could do it very easily; but are we so pathetic as to just ignore the fact that it is he who does it to us in the first place, and then we praise him as if he saved us from some great evil?

He never gave us a unforgiving sonsequence for sin. He knew we would sin so he gave us a way out through his son. If Adam and Eve stayed in the garden they would have never have children and would have remained in a state of innocents not knowing good from evil. He never made satan go evil satan choose to reble against god know who he was. We praise him for giving us a way to save us from sin. For no unclean thing can dewl with god.

Next question for you Christians, why is it you believe God is so pure of heart and uncorruptable? I know the Bible doesn't give a solid statement of the meaning of life, but it leans very much so to the idea that we are here for "God's glory". If God is so pure, and modest, why would he need us for his glory? Why would he need to show off his glory at all? Is there another God in another galaxy far away, making fun of (y)our God? Too me it sounds like God has a superiority complex and doesnt want to admit it. Isn't it a bit silly to think we were created and that we go through all these tests of faith, all this pain, just cause he loves us?

Gods glory is to bring to past the immortaltiy and etenral life of man. He dosent need us to glorify him to show that he is god. If he wanted to show the world his glory he would have the earth show the world that he is god. So we worship him because we need him not so much as he needs us. God is uncorruptable for his son said there is none greater than the father. God dose care about you he want us to return to him that all the glory he wants.

Also, how can you sit with a straight and sincere face and say "My God loves me with all his heart."? If you look at Gods actions in simple terms and compared him to someone like your parents (or someone who truly loves you) would you honestly and without question, believe he does? Sure he might love us on a degree that certain people love their pets. They enjoy playing with them, and raising them, but when they get sick/injured; some people have no qualms with putting them down and moving on.

I know god loves us. I know that as sure as a person can look up at the sun rise and know what they are beholding. He dosnet love us as pets but as his children. "For we are all sons and daughter of god" If you ask to know that he dose love you with real intent really wantting to know he will let you know in way that you cant deny. I can look at someone in eye and tell them that for I know it is true I have seen many times in my life even when I didnt desever it. Our worth in gods eye dosent change just our worhtyness.

[motiv-8]

While sitting in yet another of my schools weekly chapel sessions, I noticed a very recurring theme. In prayer, song, testimony, everything; Christians constantly thank God for saving us from our sins, with Jesus. What I dont understand is, why have you seemed to forget that it was God that gave such an unforgiving consequence for sin? In the Bible, it is God that threw us from Eden. It is God that sends us to Hell, or rather, lets us go there and it is God that created Satan. I can understand we would be thankful that a deity didn't destroy us, considering he could do it very easily; but are we so pathetic as to just ignore the fact that it is he who does it to us in the first place, and then we praise him as if he saved us from some great evil?

God doesn't do these things, we do. I mean.. This is all about blaming God for things that humans do. God threw Man out of Eden because Man sinned. God sends us to Hell because of the bad things we do. God created Satan, but Satan is who he is because he chose to rebel against God.

Next question for you Christians, why is it you believe God is so pure of heart and uncorruptable? I know the Bible doesn't give a solid statement of the meaning of life, but it leans very much so to the idea that we are here for "God's glory". If God is so pure, and modest, why would he need us for his glory? Why would he need to show off his glory at all? Is there another God in another galaxy far away, making fun of (y)our God? Too me it sounds like God has a superiority complex and doesnt want to admit it. Isn't it a bit silly to think we were created and that we go through all these tests of faith, all this pain, just cause he loves us?

God is uncorruptible because he is the Ultimate Good. It's a philosophical question, not particularly Christian in essence. The Bible does nothing of what you claim it does, so I'd like to know what verses you are referring to. God doesn't need us, Creation is represented as a gift, a gift that comes with responsibilities. All pain comes from deviating from Good; if it were up to God then there would be no pain and suffering; but because we are free to choose for ourselves, it is not up to God, it is up to us. And so the things we do cause pain, for ourselves and for others. Yet you attribute it to God for... whatever personal reasons you might have.

Shouldn't humans have a backbone, and not live in fear under the higher power?

Yes. And we do. If you live a moral life, there is nothing to fear. You're blowing things out of proportion.

[AqD]

Shouldn't humans have a backbone, and not live in fear under the higher power?

I told them but they would not understand, both christians or non-christians.

I guess some people, or perhaps a lot of people, just like to be pet animals.

Yes. And we do. If you live a moral life, there is nothing to fear. You're blowing things out of proportion.

Uh yes. Just like a slave-master tells his slaves "If you do what I want you to do, there is nothing to fear from me". This is your definition of having "backbone". Interesting! (EDIT: you didn't create the 'moral' in bible by yourself. It's rules made by others.)
________
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[motiv-8]

Uh yes. Just like a slave-master tells his slaves "If you do what I want you to do, there is nothing to fear from me". This is your definition of having "backbone". Interesting! (EDIT: you didn't create the 'moral' in bible by yourself. It's rules made by others.)

Actually, it's your definition by twisting my words and pretending that I'm calling us slaves and God a slave-master. It's nothing of the sort, but thanks for playing.

[AqD]

Actually, it's your definition by twisting my words and pretending that I'm calling us slaves and God a slave-master. It's nothing of the sort, but thanks for playing.

It's the same. Either you follow your own rules (or rules you agree to follow) and to live solely for yourself and the ones you love, or you're a slave.

Ah, so you would prefer everyone to be robots?

And you prefer everyone to become robots, even if they're not and god could just make them so?
________
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[motiv-8]

It's the same. Either you follow your own rules (or rules you agree to follow) and to live solely for yourself and the ones you love, or you're a slave.

Fortunately for everyone, things are not as black and white as you'd like to twist them to be.

And you prefer everyone to become robots, even if they're not and god could just make them so?

Ha ha, you're so clever.