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  1. #1
    TW Bigfoot
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    Default UK: Marching into the Orwellian State

    Giant database plan 'Orwellian'

    Proposals for a central database of all mobile phone and internet traffic have been condemned as "Orwellian".

    Geoff Hoon has said he is prepared to go "quite a long way" with civil liberties to "stop terrorists"

    ..

    He said the police and security services needed the powers to deal with "terrorists or criminals" using telephones connected to the internet, for "perfectly proper reasons, to protect our society".


    But the Lib Dems' communities spokeswoman Julia Goldsworthy said it sounded like "something I would expect to read in [George Orwell's book] 1984" and questioned whether the government and councils could be trusted not to misuse the powers.



    She asked: "How much more control can they have? How far is he prepared to go to undermine civil liberties?"



    The plans were condemned as "Orwellian" on Wednesday by the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives have called on the government to justify proposals for a giant database containing all internet and telephone traffic.



    ..


    Shadow home secretary Dominic Grieve said pulling all the information together in a central server, to be managed by government, "represents a very profound change in the relationship between the state and the citizen".



    the proposals came under fire from critics, including the government's own reviewer of anti-terror laws, Lord Carlile, who said it would need "very strict controls".
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7674775.stm
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7671046.stm


    we're catching up america!
    we're still well ahead of you guys on cameras. ours even talk to us now.
    check it out.
    "Talking" CCTV cameras that tell off people dropping litter or committing anti-social behaviour are to be extended to 20 areas across England. They are already used in Middlesbrough where people seen misbehaving can be told to stop via a loudspeaker, controlled by control centre staff.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6524495.stm
    There bloody millions of cameras, everywhere. but dont worry, from what i hear youll have them everywhere soon too.

    ahh its good to be safe right...
    Last edited by bigfootedfred; October 17, 2008 at 01:04 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Giant database plan 'Orwellian'

    Centralizing information seems to be a growing trend in western society. Though i would often feel things of such nature necessary the person involved is attempting to cross a line of privacy which will ultimately piss off most americans. This kind of database is unneccessary and seems to be a product of "holy crap 911 everyone is trying to kill us" mentality. This isn't the first time america has shown this kind of narrow-minded phobia before (McCarthyism).
    "A man's worth is no greater than his ambitions."
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  3. #3
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Giant database plan 'Orwellian'

    To they have a catchy name for this database yet?

    If not I have one!

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Phonebook
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  4. #4

    Default Re: Giant database plan 'Orwellian'

    The plans are condemned as 'Orwellian'? Good god that's become a lazy catch-all term these days, I'm unsurprised the Lib Dems are using it. Like most of the governments proposals these days I doubt it will happen as Labour aren't popular enough. I rather like the talking cameras myself.
    'When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything. '

    -Emile Cammaerts' book The Laughing Prophets (1937)

    Under the patronage of Nihil. So there.

  5. #5
    TW Bigfoot
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    Default Re: Giant database plan 'Orwellian'

    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    The plans are condemned as 'Orwellian'? Good god that's become a lazy catch-all term these days,
    No just sign of the times..

    Like most of the governments proposals these days I doubt it will happen as Labour aren't popular enough.
    after superhero Brown "saves the day" rescuing all the banks by buying large stakes in them? hmm. we'll see.

    How many more civil rights are we prepared to give up.

    and bird.
    im not sure on this one, but i dont think there is a record of every call ive made where i was when i made it, every website,
    every IM conversation ive had, every single bloody thing i do , and added to everything else thats been passed,
    pretty much a complete record of my life to date including "whats my favorite colour" - in the bloody phonebook!

    This kind of database is unneccessary and seems to be a product of "holy crap 911 everyone is trying to kill us" mentality. This isn't the first time america has shown this kind of narrow-minded phobia before (McCarthyism).
    this isnt a topic about america.
    you guys already have a database.
    Last edited by bigfootedfred; October 16, 2008 at 11:18 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Giant database plan 'Orwellian'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfootedfred View Post
    No just sign of the times..

    after superhero Brown "saves the day" rescuing all the banks by buying large stakes in them? hmm. we'll see.

    How many more civil rights are we prepared to give up.
    Hmmmm... a former Chancellor taking advantage of a dire situation, saving the day and then extending his powers?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    'When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything. '

    -Emile Cammaerts' book The Laughing Prophets (1937)

    Under the patronage of Nihil. So there.

  7. #7
    TW Bigfoot
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    Default Re: Giant database plan 'Orwellian'

    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hmmmm... a former Chancellor taking advantage of a dire situation, saving the day and then extending his powers?
    yeah hilaroius.

    im am getting sick of this. absloutley sick of it.
    they take this they take that, and people like you sit there and go "oh well, they have to stop the terrorists" thats ok.
    Sure the government can look at everything i do, sure they can have cameras everyhwere, sure they can have those cameras tell us off for being 'bad'
    sure national ID card with all kinds of information all on another database, sure database of all my phone calls, everything i do online, why not.
    Its not like they would lose half of it, or like they would misuse all this power right.

    ive ing had it. im fed up with this ing BS.
    Last edited by bigfootedfred; October 16, 2008 at 11:31 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Giant database plan 'Orwellian'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfootedfred View Post
    yeah hilaroius.

    im am getting sick of this. absloutley sick of it.
    they take this they take that, and people like you sit there and go "oh well, they have to stop the terrorists" thats ok.
    Sure the government can look at everything i do, sure they can have cameras everyhwere, sure they can have those cameras tell us off for being 'bad'
    sure national ID card with all kinds of information all on another database, sure database of all my phone calls, everything i do online, why not.
    Its not like they would lose half of it, or like they would misuse all this power right.

    ive ing had it. im fed up with this ing BS.
    Well frankly chief there are very few cameras were I live, the database hasn't been implemented and niether has a national id card. Perhaps where you live they all have but I don't live in the 1930's germany part of Britain you clearly do. So have a fresh dose of reality and breath the air of freedom. I know it's early but paranoia seems all the more balanced mid-day.
    'When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything. '

    -Emile Cammaerts' book The Laughing Prophets (1937)

    Under the patronage of Nihil. So there.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Giant database plan 'Orwellian'

    Guess the size of bureaucracy needed for that. Plainly suffocating.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  10. #10

    Default Re: Marching into the Orwellian State

    Wow all the teenagers are going to tease the cameras. They will probably bring a picture of them mooning someone and tape it onto them.
    "If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance." - George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

  11. #11
    SepulchreUK's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: UK: Marching into the Orwellian State

    If you aren't commiting crimes you have nothing to hide. Yes by this proposal the government would have a store of your dirty texts with your girlfriend or what Mature Ladies Pornsite you went to last night, are they going to give a though? Of course not. They aren't looking to control the lies of Tom,Dick & Jane your standard Brits whose only real interest is what's on offer at Wetherspoon's this week.

  12. #12

    Default Re: UK: Marching into the Orwellian State

    Quote Originally Posted by MilaneseDynasty View Post
    If you aren't commiting crimes you have nothing to hide. Yes by this proposal the government would have a store of your dirty texts with your girlfriend or what Mature Ladies Pornsite you went to last night, are they going to give a though? Of course not. They aren't looking to control the lies of Tom,Dick & Jane your standard Brits whose only real interest is what's on offer at Wetherspoon's this week.
    I cannot believe you can be so naiive. Of course, if you fit between the lines you have nothing to fear, but remember who draws those lines. Let me give you a hint - it ain't you.

    What is a perfectly legal activity today could be a crime tomorrow.
    You won't be the one to decide. In fact you won't be deciding anything. Once you put certain instruments in government's hands they will never be willingly forfeited.

    It's beyond me how you ignore history and merrily stride towards slavery, popping stupid, supposedly witty, remarks to "reassure" the rest of us that things are fine. Things are not fine. If you allow the government to monitor and control your liberties you're a blustering fool my friend, a deluded fool.
    Last edited by Plan C; October 17, 2008 at 12:52 PM.

  13. #13
    SepulchreUK's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: UK: Marching into the Orwellian State

    Quote Originally Posted by marrow View Post
    I cannot believe you can be so naiive. Of course, if you fit between the lines you have nothing to fear, but remember who draws those lines. Let me give you a hint - it ain't you.

    What is a perfectly legal activity today could be a crime tomorrow.
    You won't be the one to decide. In fact you won't be deciding anything. Once you put certain instruments in government's hands they will never be willingly forfeited.

    It's beyond me how you ignore history and merrily stride towards slavery, popping stupid, supposedly witty, remarks to "reassure" the rest of us that things are fine. Things are not fine. If you allow the government to monitor and control your liberties you're a blustering fool my friend, a deluded fool.
    Lol. Oh please, things do not change that drastically. Due to our term length and shifts in political leaning, most governments can never be too ridiculous in their reforms, and successive governments often repeal dodgy reforms so that we find we end up keep a constant.

    I was starting, just starting to think maybe something ill was up with the country over this whole business with the extended detention without charge policy that the government has been trying to push through, this goes against one of the oldest and most important pieces of British law that has stood as a testament to our little countries greatness for 800 years.
    However, the Lords have thrown out the bill completely, this means it has to go back to the House of Commons for revision and yes they can push it again, but the Lords can throw it out a further 2 times, and even the Queen has ultimate veto on any law.
    What this shows to me, is that when our basic freedoms, and I mean our essential freedoms not just your internet traffic, are threatened people do not sit idly by.
    Wit is educated insolence ~ Aristole

    History will be kind to me for I intend to write it. ~ Churchill

    That is the essential difference between Britain and the rest of the world. The French see a table and see a potential for dinner. The British see the potential to play wiff-waff. ~ Boris Johnson

  14. #14

    Default Re: UK: Marching into the Orwellian State

    Quote Originally Posted by MilaneseDynasty View Post
    If you aren't commiting crimes you have nothing to hide. Yes by this proposal the government would have a store of your dirty texts with your girlfriend or what Mature Ladies Pornsite you went to last night, are they going to give a though? Of course not. They aren't looking to control the lies of Tom,Dick & Jane your standard Brits whose only real interest is what's on offer at Wetherspoon's this week.
    Well, it would give them a lot of power over you. For example, you are cheating on your wife, and when government needs you to spy on someone, they just force you to do it, or they would give all your call logs to your wife or something like that. People still have a right for privacy. I don't give a about all that terrorist crap, but I don't want someone to know what am I doing in my private time. Hope, that will never happen in Canada.

  15. #15

    Default Re: UK: Marching into the Orwellian State

    Well tbh i cant believe people delude themselves into thinking they are important. The goverment doesnt care about your private life at all, Unless its hilarious which if it is means you should sell it as a video and go on a reality TV show, Otherwise the goverment doesnt give a damn about your private life and what cooking recipe your sharing over your text message or what website your visiting.
    Edit: so basically iagree with the post above me. Sort of.
    "If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance." - George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

  16. #16
    Niles Crane's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: UK: Marching into the Orwellian State

    Whatever. I'm still going to live there when I'm older.

  17. #17

    Default Re: UK: Marching into the Orwellian State

    Is it just me or is the word 'Orwellian' being used far too often these days?

  18. #18
    SepulchreUK's Avatar Miles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fianóglach View Post
    Is it just me or is the word 'Orwellian' being used far too often these days?
    Oh definately, next thing you know Birdwatchers across the nation are going to have licenses for Binoculars as they are deemed "Orwellian" and could be used to infringe upon the rights of the general populace!

    Quote Originally Posted by roy34543 View Post
    Yes. Imagine the poor kids named orwell who dont know what your talking about.
    Let's be honest though, who names a child Orwell this day and age. They all have ridiculous Americanised names like Peyton, Dayton or Flayton. Or are named after places like Paris, London and Chichester, or their parents simply get confused and make up an entirely new name thinking it is something profound and novel in ancient aramaic like Hipgottaflex.
    Whatever their name they all seem to grow up to go by the name "Jay" anyway. :hmmm:
    Last edited by Noble Savage; October 17, 2008 at 07:03 AM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: UK: Marching into the Orwellian State

    Is it just me or is the word 'Orwellian' being used far too often these days?
    Yes. Imagine the poor kids named orwell who dont know what your talking about.
    "If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance." - George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

  20. #20
    Incontinenta Buttox's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: UK: Marching into the Orwellian State

    The War on Terror (as we are not supposed to call it any more) is both the elephant in the room and the MacGuffin.

    The government know that most people do not think there is a real threat to any degree or of any variety of difference from the one which has always been there and always will be.

    The government knows we know they are lying, so the poor things who are given the job of making the lie plausible obviously start to look more stupid than is their natural condition, as they have to try to make the fantasy credible.

    It is just like watching a boring film with a bad plot and script, acted by useless actors, who are out of their depth in anything beyond the village-hall amateur-dramatics production.

    However, it is imperative for the government to maintain the fear and the simmering hysteria in order to be able to pursue and push through repressive legislation.

    Since this is apparently failing, expect there to be some concoctions of threats and exaggerations of the capabilities of these otherwise hazy and murky terrorists in the months ahead.

    New Labour will never give up the extra powers which will ride on the back of terrorism. It is the best excuse they will ever have to seize absolute power without a military coup, with people being almost willingly duped, as long as they keep saying "Bang!"

    The threat of the undefined, vague plot is what drives the "narrative", the plot. It just has to be mentioned in passing, referred to obliquely and kept simmering to become an unquestioned element of our collective culture and psyche.

    We will get to the stage where we are eternally grateful for being protected from something which never really existed.

    We will love the feel of the boot stamping on our faces because we will think that it must be better than the one thing which we all know must be worse.

    Terrorism is also Bertrand Russell's Teapot in Space:
    If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving around the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes.
    The government will always be able to trump us with the, "Ah, yes, but you are not privy to what we know" excuse.

    Governments are not afraid of terrorism. It is simply the bogeyman du jour, which they have to use to keep the one thing of which they are truly afraid quiet and passive:
    The People.
    "...I saw a little boy, perhaps ten years old, driving a huge carthorse along a narrow path, whipping it whenever it tried to turn. It struck me that if only such animals became aware of their strength we should have no power over them, and that men exploit animals in much the same way as the rich exploit the proletariat."
    George Orwell on what inspired Animal Farm.

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