Racial trends in education - sign of social inequity or are they just not trying?

[Mithie]

I'm sure everyone here has heard arguments either way while being slammed in the face by statistics such as this one: http://www.blackexcel.org/06-sat-act...-ethnicity.htm correlating education benchmarks with racial makeups.

I'm also sure everyone here has heard both the left and the right use these statistics to support their own agendas.

The left point out that minorities such as the African Americans and hispanics traditionally score lower because of social neglect and an education system that's strongly biased against them due to economic conditions. The solution, therefore, is to step up the equal opportunity education standards by encouraging cultural mixing in the school room and rigorously enforcing affirmative action.

The right point out that blublurgh, certain minorities are simply not trying hard enough because of cultural prejudices and immoral influences such as rap and gang culture. The solution, therefore, is to step up efforts in winning the war on drugs and gang culture, and reinforce the fact that the only way you're going to get anywhere in life is to try harder, by abolishing affirmative action to incite the minorities to make a better effort.

Obviously, which way you lean depends heavily on your political sway. But I'm curious as to hear alternative explainations, especially from non-Americans, of this fairly significant gap in racial/education correlation.

Personally, I think the right is full of and the left are just a bunch of idiot carebears.

[Ryan Industries]

Heh To quote lewis black

'I hate democrats and republicans equally... because the Republican stands up in congress and goes "I HAVE A REALLY BAD IDEA!" And then the democrat goes "AND I CAN MAKE IT SHI**IER!'

Honestly I think its a mix of a few things,

A. Yes, economic position as a major effect on it, These kids think that even if they get a full education they're never going to go anywhere, and alot of the times the teachers dont bother reinforcing the fact that they will, or they dont challenge them enough to actually try. At the same time why go to school when you can protect your family and live a life as a gang banger? Most of these kids have a fundamental thirst for knowlege, whether or not that knowlege is being expanded... well I think you see where im going. And theres no real way to 'beat' drugs or gang banging, at this point its hard to think of or see an easy solution to this conflict. And rap culture in itself is ing up the black culture I'm sorry. Where has the Proud strong black man of the 60's gone? The dedicated fathers, families.... ugh. Once the white man stopped keeping them down they had nothing to keep them together and took away their common enemy. It sort of reminds me of Africa, once the Europeans left there was very little to unite the Africans, and the place more or less imploded. I say we hire that chick from 'freedom writers' to teach them all... she is jesus after all.


Edit: Just realized I didnt specify a B.... Oh dear

[El Brujo]

Where has the Proud strong black man of the 60's gone? The dedicated fathers, families.... ugh. Once the white man stopped keeping them down they had nothing to keep them together and took away their common enemy.

It has more to do with Lyndon Johnson's War on Fatherhood.

[morteduzionism]

hmm...sorry I'm American...

I think it's called "A Culture of Poverty"...yada yada yada...

If your mom/dad were poor & uneducated how/why would anyone think you'd be different? It'd take some extraordinary circumstances to break that cycle.

One example: So, you've got a school in a poor area that only gets funds from the state/whatever vs. a school in an affluent area where affluent/educated parents assist/contribute to the school in addition to state funds...

Where do you think a student is more likely to be exposed to the "Classics?"

Many of the vocabulary words/terms/ideas on most standardized tests come from what? Classics.

Who is more likely to do better on the verbal part of standarized tests?

Wash/rinse/repeat...

Before you know it you've got two generations of people who (bleep)ed up on those tests and have suffered because of it...

My solution: I think it'd take a complete overhaul of the educational system. Students need to be challenged from K - 12; there can't be any drop offs.

In other words I think it's a mistake to try to bolster early education if when the students get older they enter an ill equiped ill prepared system (i.e. 7-12)...

Just like it's a mistake to bolster 7-12th grade ignoring K-6, then you have students unprepared for 7-12th...

Where has the Proud strong black man of the 60's gone?

You mean before desegragation? They married white women.

[Erik]

The left point out that minorities such as the African Americans and hispanics traditionally score lower because of social neglect and an education system that's strongly biased against them due to economic conditions.

All they need to prove this is look at countries where blacks and browns aren't neglected and the education system isn't biased against them.

Coinsidently, I think my own country comes close enough.
So for the answer: the first couple of generations of back immigrants did very poorly at school, but the later generations do much better, proving they can and will pull themselves up if given the change, it just takes half a century or so.

[Ryan Industries]

You mean before desegragation? They married white women.

No I mean the black man that strived to raise a good family and that stayed to raise them... Of course this obiously doesnt represent the majority of Afro-americans, But in urban areas its depressing to see how things have changed.

[morteduzionism]

No I mean the black man that strived to raise a good family and that stayed to raise them... Of course this obiously doesnt represent the majority of Afro-americans, But in urban areas its depressing to see how things have changed.

After desegragtion is what I meant...when you had real "black communities" you had the stuff you mentioned...

When Branch Rickey saw how far Jacky could hit that ball and how fast he was...it was over.

That's why I said, "they married white women."

Basically, back then, you had Bill Cosby - preaching family values and a strong stand for self-improvement through hard work and education.

Today, you have P. Diddy.

No (bleep)ing body listens to Puffy about

+rep

Damn...

[Mithie]

No I mean the black man that strived to raise a good family and that stayed to raise them... Of course this obiously doesnt represent the majority of Afro-americans, But in urban areas its depressing to see how things have changed.

Basically, back then, you had Bill Cosby - preaching family values and a strong stand for self-improvement through hard work and education.

Today, you have P. Diddy.

[Ryan Industries]

Basically, back then, you had Bill Cosby - preaching family values and a strong stand for self-improvement through hard work and education.

Today, you have P. Diddy.

+rep

[Erik]

Basically, back then, you had Bill Cosby - preaching family values and a strong stand for self-improvement through hard work and education.

Today, you have P. Diddy.

If I couldn't get into a good school no matter how hard I worked, because of my background, then I would turn to Diddy as well.

[craziii]

If I couldn't get into a good school no matter how hard I worked, because of my background, then I would turn to Diddy as well.

that is total bs with the way college entrance works in the usa, the black + hispanic population get a 20% advantage over white + asians.

[Amadeus]

that is total bs with the way college entrance works in the usa, the black + hispanic population get a 20% advantage over white + asians.

very true
colleges are desperate for hispanics and blacks that they set the bar ridicoulosly low for them. I have to get an SAT score 300 points higher in order to "compete" with my hispanic friend.

Also i know several minority people (hispanics, blacks) who all grew up in poor conditions and they are getting very good grades. I also know some black kids at my high school who would rather play football all day than do their homework. Not trying to be racists but who's fault do you think that is?

[Viking Prince]

If I couldn't get into a good school no matter how hard I worked, because of my background, then I would turn to Diddy as well.

If your background includes not reading at the level of incoming students -- should you be admitted on the same conditions? If your background includes not having the math skills, the same question? What about study habits? What about financial security? It is not a racial problem, but a preparation and social problem. Parents who have not gone to college are not as prepared to get their children prepared for college.

I know from my own background and I was bright enough to be a national merit scholar finalist (NMSQT in the dark ages). I was still not properly prepared and I ened up dropping out after two years since the college was not helping white males to succeed and I was unable to figure it out on my own. Too much entertainment and the discovery of girls did not help the procss either. When I returned, I was better prepared and had the help of an employer interested in my success.

[Bovril]

Stats like those start but don't settle debates. I shall reserve judgement untill I've done read enough of the litterature regarding controlled studies of this subject. From what I have seen, background is much more important than race, but race is still a factor. However, you simply cannot control for race specific conditioning and so on, so a perfect study is impossible.

[Mithie]

Stats like those start but don't settle debates. I shall reserve judgement untill I've done read enough of the litterature regarding controlled studies of this subject. From what I have seen, background is much more important than race, but race is still a factor. However, you simply cannot control for race specific conditioning and so on, so a perfect study is impossible.

And on this note - I agree with you. You and I both know that the degree of education a person receives is the result of a vastly complex equation made up from thousands of variables; but politicians, when pushing agenda, often oversimplifies this equation in an attempt to produce a black and white picture.

[El Brujo]

If I couldn't get into a good school no matter how hard I worked, because of my background, then I would turn to Diddy as well.

Every college in America is desperate to get Black students.

[13ig_VV]

From my personal experiences, it's too damn hard for a lot of blacks (and would be for any other race in their spot).

My experience: I have a friend who is black from the slums who goes to private school with me. He is really quite dedicated to getting somewhere (his mom is too--she's been by herself for a while and just remarried--but it is hard for her not financially--he gets financial aide--but just because it is hard to get a kid to the school that is 45 minutes away while working her 8 hour job and raising kids. i'm sure you've heard the story before). The big problem is in the society; any time my friend is asked where he goes and he mentions that he goes to ____ academy, he is teased. It puts him down. He then dislikes the school and is discouraged. Why is he discouraged? Well, it seems to me that the area where he lives believes in the ideals of getting laid, getting rich, and being cool. Going to a private school does not fit.

Also, there is the fact that he has the whole community's fate resting on his shoulders; he tells me quite often that it is damn hard when he has trouble in school because he is looked on as failing his race and community--talk about pressure! I have trouble enough with just my parents being upset with me!

We need to find a way not to improve the educational system but to improve it's image. People need to want to be educated to successfully gain one, no matter how good the education system and education itself is. If I do not want to listen then I will not. Those who fail in school need to want to listen and learn.

[Playfishpaste]

Being a hispanic, I'm quite sure most of the school issue isn't inherently race, it's lack of support and a bad system in general. I knew my parents were never gonna help me out with school since they didn't exactly get a first rate education and english was a second language to em. In New York at least the elementary school system favors those with money, as they get to the private schools, public elementary schools are quite bad here, which is why everyone's rushing to get their pups into charter school. At the same time a lack of motivation, which I must agree with the republicans on here, comes from the media and pop culture. Kids here think picking up a book makes you homosexual, which somehow makes you laughable and pathetic. Then when they get older and realize they are laughable and pathetic, they start thinking "man, I really should have read a book".

The upper middle class and above majority don't have this issue, their parents will send them to the best schools and have them work their asses off.

[Bovril]

Kids here think picking up a book makes you homosexual, which somehow makes you laughable and pathetic. Then when they get older and realize they are laughable and pathetic, they start thinking "man, I really should have read a book".

Truism: Education is wasted on the young.

Perhaps the sort of worker's educational societies that were popular at the turn of the 20th century would help.

[zznɟ ǝɥʇ]

But you also have Mos Def, Common, Talib Kweli...