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Thread: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

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    Default Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    "Washington - American's armed forces are growing bigger to reduce the strains from seven years of war, but if the US is confronting an era of "persistent conflict," as some experts believe, it will need an even bigger military.

    A larger military could more easily conduct military and nation-building operations around the world. But whether the American public has the appetite to pursue and pay for such a foreign-policy agenda, especially after more than five years of an unpopular war in Iraq, is far from clear.

    Last week, the Army released a new manual on "stability operations" that outlines for the Army a prominent global role as a nation-builder. The service will maintain its ability to fight conventional land wars, but the manual's release signals that it expects future conflicts to look more like Iraq or Afghanistan than World War II. While Defense Secretary Robert Gates has not publicly supported expanding the force beyond what is already planned, he has said the United States must prepare for more counterinsurgency wars like the ones it is fighting now – a hint that a larger military may be necessary.

    Some analysts are certain of that need.

    The Army currently has about 540,000 active-duty soldiers and is expected to attain its goal of 547,000 by 2011. The Marine Corps, also tapped to expand, should top 202,000 within the next couple of years. The total American force – including active-duty, reserve, and guard – is about 2.2 million.

    John Nagl, a counterinsurgency expert and a retired Army officer, says in coming years the Army should grow to 750,000 and the Marine Corps to 250,000. Demand for troops is already high, and it won't abate anytime soon even if substantial numbers of troops return from Iraq, he recently said at the Center for a New American Security, a think tank in Washington.

    Meanwhile, the top US commander in Afghanistan has asked for more American troops that the US simply can't produce until more leave Iraq.

    "We don't have enough brigades to fight – that is an inconvertible fact," says Mr. Nagl.

    If the US is to remain a superpower in a world in which weak nations, not strong ones, are the big threats, then it must expand its forces so it won't again enter a conflict using too few troops, as it did in Iraq, say other experts. America must stay engaged in nations with weak or nonexistent governments to prevent extremism from taking root and threatening the US.

    "This is not a prediction of conflicts to come, but a recognition that the potential for stabilization and reconstruction missions remains high," writes Fred Kagan, a senior fellow at the conservative American Enterprise Institute, a think tank here, in a book he cowrote called "Ground Truth." Mr. Kagan and Thomas Donnelly argue for a total force of about 2.8 million, which includes an active Army of about 800,000 and a Marine Corps of about 200,000.

    "We may not want these missions, but they might be thrust upon us; and they certainly might appear to a future president as the least-bad outcome," Kagan writes.

    Despite warnings against allowing the military to become the face of US foreign policy, more analysts are arguing that the resource- and manpower-rich armed forces are in the best position to fulfill any US policy pertaining to strengthening and stabilizing troubled nations.

    Meanwhile, the State Department has pledged to hire 600 new foreign-service officers by next year to join the military in countries where stability operations are the main focus.

    "The military is definitely out front. They are faster than [civilians] are, they are alert, and they have a lot of resources," says Daniel Serwer, a vice president at the United States Institute of Peace, which supports the Army's new manual.

    The cost of all this gives some analysts pause.

    Frank Hoffman, a senior fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute in Philadelphia, says the new manual may represent a shift for the Army, but he has yet to see major changes in the overall Army approach. "The Army is not fundamentally investing in new capabilities or creating any unique skill sets, or reducing training requirements or workload from conventional fighting," he says. It has yet to reevaluate its expensive future combat system, a cornerstone of Army modernization, he notes.

    In Congress, which a few years ago was bipartisan in its support for a larger military, some are adjusting their view. Rep. Jack Murtha (D) of Pennsylvania recently argued that the cost of a bigger force is too much and could prevent the military from buying equipment.

    Whatever happens, Pentagon officials know they may be charged with expanding the military beyond current growth goals.

    David Chu, the Pentagon's undersecretary of defense for personnel and readiness, says meeting higher recruiting goals would require a basic shift in the way the nation views the military. He says he bristles when discussions in Washington about encouraging Americans to participate in national service programs omit the military.

    "Few of those attempts, and fewer of those legislative proposals, ever mention the military," he says. If the country were to reverse that stand, "there won't be serious recruiting issues."

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1014/p03s05-usmi.html

  2. #2
    The King Of Peasants's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    Well it would be useful to make our active military as big as it was during the cold war. As if we did that the national guard would never need to assume the role it has in Iraq.
    "July 14, 2008: I think this is a case where Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are fundamentally sound. They're not in danger of going under. They're not the best investment these days from a long term standpoint going back. I think they are in good shape going forward. They're in the housing market. I do think their prospects going forward are very solid."
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    There's always the draft.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    With what the army is going to be sold into by their 'benevolent and omnipotent government' I think I'll go into the body bag business. With what the government pays for things I can make them at $20 a pop and sell them to uncle sam for $100.

    "All hail the American Empire; we who are about to die, SALUTE YOU!"
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  5. #5
    Cúchulainn's Avatar 我不是老外,我是野蛮人
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    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    Yes that is exactly what you want.

    A single country that has a monopoly on warfare.

    Do you honestly think this entity will listen to any objections made by others, when it can not face any repercussions even from a combined attack.

    This is something that the 90% of the world that isn't America should not want.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cúchulainn View Post
    Yes that is exactly what you want.

    A single country that has a monopoly on warfare.

    Do you honestly think this entity will listen to any objections made by others, when it can not face any repercussions even from a combined attack.

    This is something that the 90% of the world that isn't America should not want.
    Indeed, sir.
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  7. #7
    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    A more active foreign policy than the US allready has in really not in its citizens best interests. I think American politicians, and many voters like the glamour of 'nation building', 'bringing democracy' and even 'protecting national interests', but the fact is the US spends vast amounts on its military and most of its citizens are not seeing much of a return for that money.

    "But the terrorists hate us!"... Why's that? They don't seems to hate Switzerland, Chile or South Africa. What's the difference? Well, the degree of interventionism in foreign policy to a large extent. The more you use your military, the more you need it.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    Hold on...

    ..."to stabilize weak nations"?

    Is this not counter to our traditional policy of destabilizing weak nations and promoting factionalism, so that we can prop up whichever dictator can sell us their country's resources the cheapest?
    Giving tax breaks to the wealthy, is like giving free dessert coupons to the morbidly obese.

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  9. #9

    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    "The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force."

    "We did not raise armies for glory or for conquest."

    "Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence."

    -Thomas Jefferson

    American Citizens are so busy being on their moral high horses that they forget their foundation, and once that foundation has been allowed to rot totally and fall away, they will find they are sitting astride a baseless and tyrannical national power.
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  10. #10
    Carentan's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    What do we consider a 'potentially threatening' country? What defines one? Why do we have any right to label a country 'good' or 'bad' based on our own personal goals?
    Hitler calls Mussolini on the phone:
    "Benito aren't you in Athens yet?"
    "I can't hear you Adolf."
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    "I can't hear you. You must be ringing from a long way off, presumably London."

  11. #11

    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    Maybe we should let the armed forces have a chance to recuperate from the horrendous stresses it has suffered by fighting in Iraq longer than it took us to win WWII?

    If Bush hadn't broken the military, I wonder if it really would need to get expanded?

    Obviously the "need" for this will greatly depend on the outcome of the election. Although I've heard McCain's campaign try and paint Obama as wanting to downsize the military, I've not heard that at all from Obama's side.

    I do feel Obama will be less likely to lead us into other nation's business than McCain. Ol' John is one big hothead.
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    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikelus Trento View Post
    Maybe we should let the armed forces have a chance to recuperate from the horrendous stresses it has suffered by fighting in Iraq longer than it took us to win WWII?

    If Bush hadn't broken the military, I wonder if it really would need to get expanded?

    Obviously the "need" for this will greatly depend on the outcome of the election. Although I've heard McCain's campaign try and paint Obama as wanting to downsize the military, I've not heard that at all from Obama's side.

    I do feel Obama will be less likely to lead us into other nation's business than McCain. Ol' John is one big hothead.
    Horrendous stresses??? What do you think the military is supposed to do?

    Seriously -- a smaller military as envisioned by Rumsfield is still appropriate. Also a bit greater caution in unsheathing the sword. There is a great deal of value to the overseas basing and military deployments, but this advantage is diminished when others are unwilling to share the burden. I do not think the UN is the way to go, but the NATO Afganistan project shows that allies are not always willing to commit real combat troops and suffer real casaulties in the field.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Horrendous stresses??? What do you think the military is supposed to do?

    Seriously -- a smaller military as envisioned by Rumsfield is still appropriate. Also a bit greater caution in unsheathing the sword. There is a great deal of value to the overseas basing and military deployments, but this advantage is diminished when others are unwilling to share the burden. I do not think the UN is the way to go, but the NATO Afganistan project shows that allies are not always willing to commit real combat troops and suffer real casaulties in the field.

    I doubt many military folks are too happy with their 3rd, 4th, and 5th tours in Iraq, do you? The military leaders have said the armed forces are at the breaking point.

    As far as greater caution in unsheathing the sword, you REALLY believe McCain will move in that direction? REALLY?
    "oooh a gypsy wind is blowing warm tonight, sky is starlit and the time is right. Now you're telling me you have to go...before you do there's something you should know." - Bob Seger

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    Viking Prince's Avatar Horrible(ly cute)
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    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikelus Trento View Post
    I doubt many military folks are too happy with their 3rd, 4th, and 5th tours in Iraq, do you? The military leaders have said the armed forces are at the breaking point.

    As far as greater caution in unsheathing the sword, you REALLY believe McCain will move in that direction? REALLY?
    The army is not at a breaking point. No serving leader in the theatre is seriously suggesting such. No leader currently in the Pentagon is suggesting such. As far as the number of tours, the personnel would like to see completion of mission. That is more important than coming home earlier. We all want the men and women to rejoin their families. That is why the Guard units are mainly back and the reserve units are getting close to the same status. This has more to do with partisan sniping for the election campaign than actual conditions on the ground.

    Part of the ability to keep from deploying the military is the crediblity of the threat. If Sen. Obama gets elected, expect opponants to test him. So, yes, I expect that Sen. McCain will use the military less than Sen. Obama.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    I don't think the Military should grow. The newer tactics they're working on will reduce numbers in field operations. What they really need is to be able to develop an efficient way to produce large numbers of local auxiliaries to aid in maintaining order as a heavy police force. (Essentially what most European forces are ever used for when the US and UK are involved).

  16. #16

    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carentan View Post
    What do we consider a 'potentially threatening' country? What defines one? Why do we have any right to label a country 'good' or 'bad' based on our own personal goals?

    because we can, and are, and have been for some time
    "World opinion" is a cacaphony of noise, even at the government level. There is no "world opinion" of over 6 billion people. People pretend it exists to try to reinforce their own biased viewpoints. -Senno


  17. #17
    Primicerius
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    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    "'The military is definitely out front. They are faster than [civilians] are, they are alert, and they have a lot of resources,' says Daniel Serwer, a vice president at the United States Institute of Peace, which supports the Army's new manual."

    What the hell is that meant to mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cúchulainn View Post
    Yes that is exactly what you want.

    A single country that has a monopoly on warfare.

    Do you honestly think this entity will listen to any objections made by others, when it can not face any repercussions even from a combined attack.

    This is something that the 90% of the world that isn't America should not want.
    94%, actually.

  18. #18
    magpie's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    Perhaps American political leaders are begining to suffer from Roman Empire syndrome.
    Power is addictive.

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  19. #19

    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    Is it just me or does a 'nation-building' army sound like an oxymoron?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Is US fighting force big enough?America needs a bigger military to stabilize weak or potentially threatening nations, some analysts argue.

    It could be useful to divert funding from some of the more useless research projects and new equipment to getting more infantry which seems to be required, Its a win-win even if you never go to war anyway, It gets rid of some unemployed bums at the very worst.
    "If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance." - George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

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