What worth are humans?

[morteduzionism]

I’d like to share a revelation that I’ve had, during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you aren’t actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with its surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply, and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague...

Agent Smith, 1999

I'd somewhat believed this sentiment long before I saw The Matrix.

My question: is it true?

Do humans serve any benificial purpose to the planet or the myriad of other species?

I also read a book that suggested: humans are the only organisms that deny other species food when feeding themselves. In other words, humans kill nearly every other organism in an area when the area is used for producing human food. If they don't kill them they restrict access to areas which effectively accomplishes the same thing: denying food.

Unlike bees, pollen doesn't collect on us so it's not like we pollinate flowers...etc etc etc

So what benifits do humans provide the earth?

EDIT: For your gods sake please don't say humans are the "stewards" of the earth. I think even the morons supporting McCain/Palin understand that the earth doesn't need us...

Also, I'm looking for PRACTICAL benifits (i.e. pollination) I'm not interested in believers spewing dogma.

[Lou337]

We provide the earth with plastic. Anyway, the more there are of us the less we seem to be worth.

[morteduzionism]

We provide the earth with plastic. Anyway, the more there are of us the less we seem to be worth.

We develop a "natural equilibrium" to our surroundings. We've learned to adapt.

How? Where? When?

Our uses here aren't as primal as pollinating flowers, but what about advances in science and technology that have generally bettered our society and helped our environment. Yes, we do hurt our environment but we're not all like that.

First of all, the earth doesn't "need" science and/or technology: humans do.

Second, that "help" you're talking about should be rephrased as "fixed"...as in humans developed technology to "fix" the parts of the environment harmed by humans...

If we're not "all that" name a benifit the human species gives the earth or any animal on earth.

We are at the top of the food chain, something has to get hurt when feeding us. The point I'm trying to make is, this is our planet until nature takes it away from us in the form of disease or natural disasters. We are the most intelligent species on the planet, the most developed, we've claimed the Earth for us.

That doesn't sound like the description of a species living in "equillibrium" with it's environment. It sounds more like a species that feels it has "dominion" over the planet.

...and I still never heard a benifit.

Humans themselves are as much of a disease to this planet as dogs, flys or cats.

I've never known dogs, flys and/or cats to exterminate whole species from an area. I've never known dogs, flys and/or cats to pollute the environment (killing other species)...

I could go on-and-on. I don't think there's any comparison whatsoever with humans

[ajm317]

First of all, the earth doesn't "need" science and/or technology: humans do.

First of all the Earth doesn't "need" anything. It's a hunk of rock floating in space. Do we worry about what's good for asteroids? Did anyone shed a tear when Shoemaker-Levi 9 collided with Jupiter?

Second, that "help" you're talking about should be rephrased as "fixed"...as in humans developed technology to "fix" the parts of the environment harmed by humans...

If we're not "all that" name a benifit the human species gives the earth or any animal on earth.

There are a wide variety of animals that have benefited from humans. Everything from dogs and cats, to sheep, to rats and cockroaches to tapeworms. Furthermore humans are responsible for a "mass extinction event" and after we're gone new species will evolve to fill the niches whose original species we destroyed. T Rex may not have been too happy about the asteroid event that ended the cretaceous, but all those little mammals ended up benefiting tremendously. Would you prevent that asteroid impact if you could? If not, what makes it different than us? And if yes, can you really say the Earth is any better or worse off today than it would be if the thing hadn't hit?

...and I still never heard a benifit.

Well, who cares?

Why should I care about tree frogs and redwoods? Really? Sure I'll care about them in the sense that if we do too much damage to the ecosystem we could end up going extinct our selves, but for their own sake? Why should I?

Don't get me wrong, I don't tear the wings off flies or torture cats, but if it comes down to making life more comfortable for humans or preserving some wildlife preserve, why should I choose the preserve? What is the intrinsic value in the furry woodland creatures?

Do you care if I wipe out a colony of squirrels? If so, what about washing my hands? I kill countless bacteria doing that. Or are squirrels more valuable to you than bacteria? I'm assuming that they are, because squirrels are more intelligent, they feel emotions.

They're more like us, and as a result you feel empathy for them.

Well what is the species most like us? What species is capable of the highest level of reasoning? Obviously the answer to both questions is: we are. And so you should feel the most empathy, not for some exotic endangered species of insect, but for your fellow man.

So I'll come right out and say it. We're more important than them. We're worth more, because at the end of the day, that's what we all think deep down, and we're the only species on this planet capable of even making that evaluation. Would chimpanzees shed a tear if gorillas went extinct? No. The only species on earth, other than gorillas, that would care is, ironically, us.

[morteduzionism]

First of all the Earth doesn't "need" anything. It's a hunk of rock floating in space. Do we worry about what's good for asteroids? Did anyone shed a tear when Shoemaker-Levi 9 collided with Jupiter?

I was referring to science/technology...but...you agreed with me, the earth doesn't "need" us...

There are a wide variety of animals that have benefited from humans. Everything from dogs and cats, to sheep, to rats and cockroaches to tapeworms.

I don't see domestication and breeding more docile creatures as a "benifit" to them.

What benifit to sheep do we provide? Rats? Roaches? Tapeworms?

Furthermore humans are responsible for a "mass extinction event" and after we're gone new species will evolve to fill the niches whose original species we destroyed. T Rex may not have been too happy about the asteroid event that ended the cretaceous, but all those little mammals ended up benefiting tremendously.Would you prevent that asteroid impact if you could? If not, what makes it different than us? And if yes, can you really say the Earth is any better or worse off today than it would be if the thing hadn't hit?

This isn't really relevant to the OP.

Well, who cares?

Only people who want to answer the question in the OP...

Why should I care about tree frogs and redwoods? Really? Sure I'll care about them in the sense that if we do too much damage to the ecosystem we could end up going extinct our selves, but for their own sake? Why should I?

Not relevant to the OP.

Don't get me wrong, I don't tear the wings off flies or torture cats, but if it comes down to making life more comfortable for humans or preserving some wildlife preserve, why should I choose the preserve? What is the intrinsic value in the furry woodland creatures?

Nothing.

The question is essentially: Are humans capable of living in harmony with their environment?

In other words, your comment isn't relevant to the OP.

Do you care if I wipe out a colony of squirrels? If so, what about washing my hands? I kill countless bacteria doing that. Or are squirrels more valuable to you than bacteria? I'm assuming that they are, because squirrels are more intelligent, they feel emotions.

Not relevant to the OP. Unless you're suggesting that humans are in fact incapable of coexisting with other species.

They're more like us, and as a result you feel empathy for them...

Well what is the species most like us? What species is capable of the highest level of reasoning? Obviously the answer to both questions is: we are. And so you should feel the most empathy, not for some exotic endangered species of insect, but for your fellow man.

Maybe you're so anti-environment that you interpret any question like this negatively.

Or maybe you're incapable of empathy for anything non-human...

I don't know but...this isn't relavant to the OP...

So I'll come right out and say it. We're more important than them. We're worth more, because at the end of the day, that's what we all think deep down, and we're the only species on this planet capable of even making that evaluation. Would chimpanzees shed a tear if gorillas went extinct? No. The only species on earth, other than gorillas, that would care is, ironically, us.

umm, ok...but what does this have to do with:

Do humans serve any benificial purpose to the planet or the myriad of other species?

Which is the question. Not 'What role do humans play...'

We humans have learned to live in diverse and sometimes extreme environments, haven't we?

That shows adaptability not a benifit.

No. For example, we didn't create diseases. We've created cures for them however.

ummm...this is a benifit to the planet, how? This helps other species, how?

We do have dominion over the earth, with other species living under our sway. Equilibium doesn't mean we're equals. Are insects, dogs, and cats supposed to have the same right to the world as we do? What have they done for the world?

With that attitude why did you even answer the question? It's obviously a question you can't answer since you seem incapable of empathy.

Mosquitos spread disease. AIDS ravages Africa. Sharks will kill others for food. The Earth isn't as helpless as you make it sound.

Mosquitos spread disease to the planet? I didn't know that...

AIDS hurts trees and plants...wow! I never knew that either...

And sharks will become food.

Who implied the earth was "helpless?" I asked what benifit are humans to the planet and the other species...

[ajm317]

I don't see domestication and breeding more docile creatures as a "benifit" to them.

What exactly does constitute a "benefit" from your point of view then? We feed them, we house them, we care for them, their populations and life spans have exploded since we came on to the scene, what more do you want exactly?

What benifit to sheep do we provide? Rats? Roaches? Tapeworms?

The answer to all three is that we provide an environment to live in that they flourish within. Rats do very well in urban areas, and we have transported them all over the world on our ships. Asking what benefit we provide to rats is a bit like asking what benefit do trees provide to nesting birds...it's so obvious the question itself is a bit ridiculous.

This isn't really relevant to the OP.

Certainly is. Extinction can be seen as a "benefit" for the ecosystem.

Only people who want to answer the question in the OP...

Not relevant to the OP.

Nothing.

In other words, your comment isn't relevant to the OP.

Not relevant to the OP.

I don't know but...this isn't relavant to the OP...

umm, ok...but what does this have to do with:

" Do humans serve any benificial purpose to the planet or the myriad of other species?"

I'm sorry but if the OP of a topic asks a question I believe it to be on topic to question whether or not the question is worth asking to begin with.

If you don't like it take it up with a mod.

EDIT: Furthermore as long as we're playing mod if you don't want to discuss ethical or moral questions, then this thread is not in the right place. You should have posted it in the Anthenaeum.

[D.B. Cooper]

How? Where? When?

We humans have learned to live in diverse and sometimes extreme environments, haven't we?


First of all, the earth doesn't "need" science and/or technology: humans do.

Second, that "help" you're talking about should be rephrased as "fixed"...as in humans developed technology to "fix" the parts of the environment harmed by humans...

No. For example, we didn't create diseases. We've created cures for them however.

That doesn't sound like the description of a species living in "equillibrium" with it's environment. It sounds more like a species that feels it has "dominion" over the planet.

We do have dominion over the earth, with other species living under our sway. Equilibium doesn't mean we're equals. Are insects, dogs, and cats supposed to have the same right to the world as we do? What have they done for the world?

I've never known dogs, flys and/or cats to exterminate whole species from an area. I've never known dogs, flys and/or cats to pollute the environment (killing other species)...

Mosquitos spread disease. AIDS ravages Africa. Sharks will kill others for food. The Earth isn't as helpless as you make it sound.

[MaximiIian]

We provide the earth with plastic..

Exactly. Nature moulded us so we could create a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic.

[D.B. Cooper]

We develop a "natural equilibrium" to our surroundings. We've learned to adapt.

Our uses here aren't as primal as pollinating flowers, but what about advances in science and technology that have generally bettered our society and helped our environment. Yes, we do hurt our environment but we're not all like that.

humans are the only organims found on earth to deny other species food when feeding themselves. In other words, humans kill nearly every other organism in an area when the area is used for producing human food. If they don't kill them they restrict access to areas which effectively denies food to other organisms.

We are at the top of the food chain, something has to get hurt when feeding us. The point I'm trying to make is, this is our planet until nature takes it away from us in the form of disease or natural disasters. We are the most intelligent species on the planet, the most developed, we've claimed the Earth for us.

[Orko]

Humans themselves are as much of a disease to this planet as dogs, flys or cats.

[Alkarin]

Humans themselves are as much of a disease to this planet as dogs, flys or cats.

we are indeed a disease. we destroy and ruin this planet, we rape it for everything it is worth and what will we do then? hope we can move on to another planet like it, or die trying

[Nikos]

we are indeed a disease. we destroy and ruin this planet, we rape it for everything it is worth and what will we do then? hope we can move on to another planet like it, or die trying

Epic fail.

[Chaigidel]

we are here to use up all the resources in order to forge god.--- if we can create it, it will give purpose to every life taken, and every misery suffered.

[The Dude]

It's a question that you can extend indefinitely.

What worth is life?

What worth is the universe?

What -is- the universe?

The core of the question you pose essentially comes down to the great question we've been asking since day one: what is the purpose of life?

Who knows. But why should we have to know? What worth are humans to earth? No worth. As stated above, Earth does not need us but then again Earth does not need anything.

We can reason and we can intelligently use our brain. What does this mean? It means that we ask an absurdly high amount of nonsensical questions that are relevant to nobody but us. Better yet, we think so much that we forget what we really are in essence: just another species. One of the billions of trillions of species that no doubt populate our universe. We just haven't met any of those yet.

I'm convinced that when first contact is made, whenever that may be, many more pieces of the puzzle will fall into place for us. If there is life on other planets, which we can pretty much assume there is, then humanity must have a place in the great spectrum of the universe somewhere, right?

As individuals, we sometimes need a third party to put us with our feet on the ground and show us reality. We need that judgement or that advice from someone else to make us widen our perspective and look at things from a top-down view every now and then.

On a race-wide scale, that third party just hasn't presented itself yet. We have invented a decent placebo though. We call him god.

[morteduzionism]

Who knows. But why should we have to know? What worth are humans to earth? No worth. As stated above, Earth does not need us but then again Earth does not need anything.

The question didn't limit the benifit to the planet only. I asked if humans provided any benifit to any other species on earth as well.

Bees pollinate.

Burrowing animals sometimes help soil.

Whatever those birds are that ride on the backs of buffalos and the little fish that swim with sharks. Both eat stuff that may harm the host animal.

Dung beetles.

Etc, etc, etc...

The purpose of life isn't really the issue. I'm simply trying to see if there's any positive benifits, related to the planet/other organisms, that come from human existance.

What exactly does constitute a "benefit" from your point of view then? We feed them, we house them, we care for them, their populations and life spans have exploded since we came on to the scene, what more do you want exactly?

Domesticated animals (dogs/cats) were sort of created for our benifit, not theres. <-------- by "created" I mean cross bred, etc...herding, rodent control, etc...

Above I gave some examples of what I see as a benifit. Specifically something like pollination done by bees.

The answer to all three is that we provide an environment to live in that they flourish within. Rats do very well in urban areas, and we have transported them all over the world on our ships. Asking what benefit we provide to rats is a bit like asking what benefit do trees provide to nesting birds...it's so obvious the question itself is a bit ridiculous.

We want sheep to "flourish" so we can slaughter/eat them. If you see that as a benifit...ok

Ok, you might have a point with rats......so we mainly benifit disease carrying pests/rodents...lol...beautiful! lol

Certainly is. Extinction can be seen as a "benefit" for the ecosystem.

hmm, I was looking for something more along the lines of mutually benificial (like bees/flowers) ... I'd have to to think about whether or not I think the eradication of one species, regardless of the results, is really a "benifit" in the sense that I'm talking about...

I'm sorry but if the OP of a topic asks a question I believe it to be on topic to question whether or not the question is worth asking to begin with.

If you don't like it take it up with a mod.

I wasn't trying to be...difficult. I was just saying that all of your responses really didn't touch on any "benifits" provided by humans...which is what the question is asking...

[ajm317]

Domesticated animals (dogs/cats) were sort of created for our benifit, not theres. <-------- by "created" I mean cross bred, etc...herding, rodent control, etc...

There is a concept of "mutually beneficial." This falls under that category.

Yes we have done these things for our benefit, but clearly motive is no consideration, otherwise bees would not count.

Above I gave some examples of what I see as a benifit. Specifically something like pollination done by bees.

Pollination is an example not a definition. By any definition of benefit I would use pets would count, so if you disagree with that assessment it's obvious you need to be more clear on what exactly your definition is.

We want sheep to "flourish" so we can slaughter/eat them. If you see that as a benifit...ok

Also we like their wool. I assume many sheep are only harvested for food at the end of their life cycle, like egg laying chickens.

Ok, you might have a point with rats......so we mainly benifit disease carrying pests/rodents...lol...beautiful! lol

Well you've made it clear that the "value" of an animal is strictly off topic, so I don't see what difference that makes. We're also host to a large variety of microscopic mites, bacteria and protozoa.

hmm, I was looking for something more along the lines of mutually benificial (like bees/flowers)

Or pets/owners.

I wasn't trying to be...difficult. I was just saying that all of your responses really didn't touch on any "benifits" provided by humans...which is what the question is asking...

Well again, if that was really all you were looking for then you should have posted in the Anthenaeum. When you post in EM&M I for one assume that issues like this are fair game.

[The Dude]

The question didn't limit the benifit to the planet only. I asked if humans provided any benifit to any other species on earth as well.

Bees pollinate.

Burrowing animals sometimes help soil.

Whatever those birds are that ride on the backs of buffalos and the little fish that swim with sharks. Both eat stuff that may harm the host animal.

Dung beetles.

Etc, etc, etc...

The purpose of life isn't really the issue. I'm simply trying to see if there's any positive benifits, related to the planet/other organisms, that come from human existance.

Ah, I see.

I just thought up the following. It's not entirely waterproof yet but who knows, I might be on to something:

In life, everything is divided into opposites. Good/bad, white/black, day/night, etc. Now, the species you mention above -add- to the ecosystem. Their purpose is to sustain it. But what happens when you fill an ecosystem with species that only work to sustain it? It will likely collapse due to lack of a natural threat.

So there has to be a destructive side to it aswell. Something that keeps overpopulation in check, cancels out obsolete species, etc. Maybe we are that destructive factor? Maybe destruction is what we contribute. The truth is often a paradox, after all. So it seems quite fitting here 8D

[morteduzionism]

Ah, I see.

I just thought up the following. It's not entirely waterproof yet but who knows, I might be on to something:

In life, everything is divided into opposites. Good/bad, white/black, day/night, etc. Now, the species you mention above -add- to the ecosystem. Their purpose is to sustain it. But what happens when you fill an ecosystem with species that only work to sustain it? It will likely collapse due to lack of a natural threat.

So there has to be a destructive side to it aswell. Something that keeps overpopulation in check, cancels out obsolete species, etc. Maybe we are that destructive factor? Maybe destruction is what we contribute. The truth is often a paradox, after all. So it seems quite fitting here 8D

That's what I was leaning to. It almost seems as if we [humans] are a form of cosmic AIDS/Cancer or some other incurable disease.

We infect a planet, develop, build cities, etc...kill planet...eons later we pop up on another planet...wash/rinse/repeat...

I'm not saying that's inherently "evil"...it's just what we do...

[Vladimir Lenin]

We are at the top of the food chain, we also, unlike all other animals are the only rational ones. While animals run away from floods, we build dams. While animals die during drought, we build irrigation canals.

It is in our nature to edit the world to fit us, it's our reason and rationality. We are unique in that one respect, it's against our nature not to use our reason and to edit the world to us.

It's silly telling a bird not to fly, or a pig not to scavenge. It's equally silly to tell a Human not to use his mind to edit the world around him.

[Bongfu]

We humans are worth exactly what we contribute to the universe. Right now we are practically worth nothing on a universal scale. However, if man can ever refocus on survival and expansion, in a few hundred years of advancement we could be quite a galactic power. Terraforming planets, population new habitats.

At the same time I fear we will always make the same mistakes. We destroy what we do not understand. When we experience something new, it is in our nature to rush into it and not take precaution. As such, we will continue on our path of destruction, and leave many more dead species in our wake.

Overall, the we of the human species are still trying to rediscover ourselves. All it takes is something to truly take us back to our roots where our brains meant survival. Until then, we will continue to destroy the planet that let us continue to exist.