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Thread: Kosovo/Serbia [Attilavolciak07 vs Milos98] Commentary Thread

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  1. #1

    Default Kosovo/Serbia [Attilavolciak07 vs Milos98] Commentary Thread

    Its obvious Kosovo shouldnt be a country if youre looking at their history why isnt Nagorno Karabagh a nation i can list many many countries which should be that arnt. Its obvious Kosovo is just there so America can have its base there to control the Balkans and get closer to Russia. Serbia cannot win if they decide to let America make bases in Serbia then Russia will close its supplies of natural gas and if they decide to go completely on Russia's side the chances of gaining Kosovo back atleast in the eyes of the Europea nations is close to zilch. They cannot attack them by military as then the American's will enter and we will have World War III

    ----

    Link to Debate Thread.
    Last edited by Senno; November 14, 2008 at 03:55 PM. Reason: Added link to Debate Thread.

  2. #2
    Senno's Avatar C'est la Vie.
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    Default Re: Kosovo/Serbia debate

    Nakharar, do you accept the debate challenge?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Kosovo/Serbia debate

    his call i might not be so active this will be my first call and it means i need to read all of i lol

  4. #4

    Default Re: Kosovo/Serbia debate

    Yes, I accept. I'll write a response in a few hours for I have to go now.

  5. #5
    clandestino's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Kosovo/Serbia debate

    Attila will you ever learn, debates in fight club are previously aranged via PM by people who agree that they will participate in debate, you can'y just open a thread and expect that someone will notice it, I wouldn't know about this debate if someone haven't notified me about it,it's very childish of you to act his way.
    First, you posted nice blah blah about Illyrians etc and now please answer me:
    does some nation can justify their terrorism, separation and self declaration of independence in the part of other nation's territory on fact that they might have been related with people who might have live in that area 1600 years ago?

    PS: Nice picture of historical ethnic Albania, I especially like the part where more then half of FYROM is historical ethnical part of Albania.
    Last edited by clandestino; October 12, 2008 at 08:24 AM.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Kosovo/Serbia debate

    Quote Originally Posted by clandestino View Post
    Attila will you ever learn, debates in fight club are previously aranged via PM by people who agree that they will participate in debate, you can'y just open a thread and expect that someone will notice it, I wouldn't know about this debate if someone haven't notified me about it,it's very childish of you to act his way.
    Nakharar and I already talked through PMs about this. Why is it childish? I'm friends with Senno and to help him make Garb's more interesting I created a thread about a very popular topic. The 'childish' claims are very childish on your part.

    PS: Nice picture of historical ethnic Albania, I especially like the part where more then half of FYROM is historival ethnical part of Albania.
    Sigh...keep it on-topic, please.

    all of things Atilla wants to discuss about are discussed there, he knows , he participated there for a while and then he of course ran away when he saw that FACTS AND FIGURES are against him. Now he's trying to bring this thing alive again hoping that no one will notice what's he's trying to pull out.
    I pulled out because of your nationalism, read Elrond's article on nationalism here to get the idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakharar
    Sorry pull out busy with RL and mod
    No problem, so I'm guessing Clandestino will take the debate, then?

  7. #7
    Senno's Avatar C'est la Vie.
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by clandestino View Post
    Attila will you ever learn, debates in fight club are previously aranged via PM by people who agree that they will participate in debate, you can'y just open a thread and expect that someone will notice it, I wouldn't know about this debate if someone haven't notified me about it,it's very childish of you to act his way.
    First, you posted nice blah blah about Illyrians etc and now please answer me:
    does some nation can justify their terrorism, separation and self declaration of independence in the part of other nation's territory on fact that they might have been related with people who might have live in that area 1600 years ago?

    PS: Nice picture of historical ethnic Albania, I especially like the part where more then half of FYROM is historical ethnical part of Albania.
    There is no requirement that the debate be set up via PM before being started here. One way to initiate a debate is to post a thread. Please don't refer to debaters as "childish". Attack the post, not the poster. Do you accept the debate challenge, Clandestino?
    -----------------------------------------------
    Please post your comments about this debate here.
    Last edited by Senno; November 10, 2008 at 01:27 PM. Reason: dp

  8. #8

    Default Re: Kosovo/Serbia debate

    Sorry pull out busy with RL and mod

  9. #9
    clandestino's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Kosovo/Serbia debate

    Never mind all of this has been discussed for 100 times, this is the most recent thread
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=191387
    all of things Atilla wants to discuss about are discussed there, he knows , he participated there for a while and then he of course ran away when he saw that FACTS AND FIGURES are against him. Now he's trying to bring this thing alive again hoping that no one will notice what's he's trying to pull out.
    join the light side of the Force: Kosovo is Serbia
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Kosovo/Serbia debate

    Im not sure i didnt want this debate i jus thought it was open to all plus not my topic aint even serbian me

  11. #11

    Default Re: Attilavolciak07 VS Milos98 Kosovo/Serbia Commentary Thread

    Obviously I don't think at all that ancestry means automatic legitimacy over a piece of land. Or else we could as well give Europe back to the Neanderthals, or the Basques since the Neanderthals properly are already extinct and the inhabitants of the Basque country are supposedly the last remnants of pre-IE Neolithic civilization.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  12. #12

    Default Re: Attilavolciak07 VS Milos98 Kosovo/Serbia Commentary Thread

    The 'opening statement' was more of showing the pro-Serbians that 1. The Illyrians are seen as the ancestors of Albanian as the languages are similar and certain tribes were even named 'Albanoi' which is awfully similar to Albania and 2. that the Albanians (the ethnic group, not just Illyrians) lived in Kosovo for a long time as most of the pro-Serbians believe that Tito invited the Albanians there just this century.

  13. #13
    Milos98's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Attilavolciak07 VS Milos98 Kosovo/Serbia Commentary Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by attilavolciak07 View Post
    The 'opening statement' was more of showing the pro-Serbians that 1. The Illyrians are seen as the ancestors of Albanian as the languages are similar and certain tribes were even named 'Albanoi' which is awfully similar to Albania and 2. that the Albanians (the ethnic group, not just Illyrians) lived in Kosovo for a long time as most of the pro-Serbians believe that Tito invited the Albanians there just this century.
    I would agree with your first point, but the second one is screwed up, because there are no evidence that Albanioi tribe lived in Kosovo, except the Albanian evidences which are reeealy reliable...
    Albanians became majority on Kosovo at the end of 19 century ( kinda like your pictures show, except the "big albania" one which is lol ), and yes, Tito opened borders for them... Same as opening borders in USA for Mexicans, but worse.

    And I wonder, why are Macedonians on those maps shown as Bulgarians?
    Last edited by Milos98; October 13, 2008 at 04:11 PM.
    Regards, Milos98

  14. #14
    saneel's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Kosovo/Serbia [Attilavolciak07 vs Milos98] Commentary Thread

    Albanians were always majority in Kosovo, Serbs only had their important monasterys there.

  15. #15
    clandestino's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Kosovo/Serbia [Attilavolciak07 vs Milos98] Commentary Thread

    Serbs were allways majority in Bosnia, then Turks came and built some mosques.
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Kosovo/Serbia [Attilavolciak07 vs Milos98] Commentary Thread

    LOL. I dont say Serbs didnt lived there, but Albanians were majority for at least past 200 years.

  17. #17
    clandestino's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Kosovo/Serbia [Attilavolciak07 vs Milos98] Commentary Thread

    They became majority around 1899.AD that is 109 years ago, in 14th century when first demographics data about Kosovo apears there was about 1,3% of Albanians at Kosovo (I presume those were shepherds in border mountains) and first census of Kosovo, made by Ottoman Turks, also shows 1% of Albanians in Kosovo so the statement that
    Albanians were always majority in Kosovo
    is utter nonsense and required sarcasm for answer.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Kosovo/Serbia [Attilavolciak07 vs Milos98] Commentary Thread

    Can you show me these demographics?

  19. #19
    clandestino's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Kosovo/Serbia [Attilavolciak07 vs Milos98] Commentary Thread

    Are you trying to exhaust me by making me repeat my self over and over again? I posted those demographics records for 100 times, in threads you participated in, you should be at least decent enough to check the thread in which you participated once and where you were pulling same schaize as here, you would find answers for all your speculations over there!If you haven't run away each and every time you would now what I'm taliking about, but nevermind here are those demographics data again for 101 time:

    Archeological findings show that Bronze and Iron Age tombs were found only in Metohia, not in Kosovo proper.
    Romans, Greeks and Thraco-Illyrians dominated the region of present Kosovo prior to the 5th century.
    In the early 7th century, Serbs settled in Balkans (including Kosovo)[10]. In the 12th century, according to the Byzantine Empress Anna Angelina Komnenos, the Serbs were the main inhabitants of Kosovo (Eastern Dalmatia and former Moesia Superior)[11]. Archeological findings from the 7th century onwards show a Serb (Slavic) cultural domination in case of glagolithic letters, pottery, cemeteries, churches and monasteries[12].

    [edit] 14th century

    The Dečani Charter from 1330 contained a detailed list of households and chartered villages in Metohija and northwestern Albania:
    3 of 89 settlements were Albanian, the other being Serb.

    However, in the literature we see several references to land being taken from Arbanasi (Albanians) and given to the Church or Serb settlement, and 'Latins and Albanois [are] under the servitude of the lordship of the Slavs'.[3]"
    "The monastery at Decani stands on a terrace commanding passes into High Albania. When Stefan Uros III founded it in 1330, he gave it many villages in the plain and catuns of Vlachs and Albanians between the Lim and the Beli Drim. Vlachs and Albanians had to carry salt for the monastery and provide it with serf labour.17 A large number of churches were sited strategically at Prizren and in 1348 Dusan is recorded as giving Albanian catuns to a monastery there. Metohija in fact was a great monastic estate."[4]
    [edit] 15th century

    The ethnic composition of Kosovo's population during this period included Serbs, Albanians, and Vlachs along with a token number of Greeks, Armenians, Saxons, and Bulgarians, according to Serbian monastic charters or chrysobulls (Hristovulja). A majority of the given names in the charters are overwhelmingly Serbian (Of 24,795 names, 23,774 were ethnic Serb names, 470 of Roman origin, 65 of Albanian origin and 61 of Greek origin). This claim is supported by the Turkish cadastral tax-census (defter) of 1455 which took into account religion and language and found an overwhelming Serb majority.
    1455: Turkish cadastral tax census (defter)[13] of the Brankovic dynasty lands (covering 80% of present-day Kosovo) recorded 480 villages, 13,693 adult males, 12,985 dwellings, 14,087 household heads (480 widows and 13,607 adult males). Totally there were around 75,000 inhabitants in 590 villages comprising modern-day Kosovo. By ethnicity:
    • 13,000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
    • 75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages
    • 46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages
    • 17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages
    • 5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn
    • 1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn
    • 1 Croat dwelling
    1487: A census of the House of Branković


    • Ipek (Peć) district:

    • City of Ipek - 68% Serbs
    • 121 Christian household
    • 33 Moslem households


    • 131 Christian household of which 52% in Suho Grlo were Serbs


    • 6,124 Christian housings (99%)
    • 55 Moslem houses (1%)

    [edit] 17th - 18th century

    The Great Turkish War of 1683–1699 between the Ottomans and the Habsburgs led to the flight of a substantial part of Kosovan Serbian population to Austrian held Vojvodina and the Military Frontier - about 60-70,000 Serb refugees total settled in the Habsburg Monarchy in that time of whom many were from Kosovo. Following this an influx of Muslim Albanian[14] from the highlands (Malesi) occurred, mostly into Metohija. The process continued in 18th century.[14]
    The same was repeated during the Second Migration of Serbs in 1737.

    [edit] 19th century


    Ethnographic map of the Balkans and west Asia Minor, Atlas Général Vidal-Lablache, Paris, 1898


    19th century data about the population of Kosovo tend to be rather conflicting, giving sometimes numerical superiority to the Serbs and sometimes to the Albanians. The Ottoman statistics are regarded as unreliable, as the empire counted its citizens by religion rather than nationality, using birth records rather than surveys of individuals.
    A study in 1838 by an Austrian physician, dr. Joseph Müller found Metohija to be mostly Slavic (Serbian) in character.[15] Müller gives data for the three counties (Bezirke) of Prizren, Peć and Đakovica which roughly covered Metohija, the portion adjacent to Albania and most affected by Albanian settlers. Out of 195,000 inhabitants in Metohija, Müller found:
    Müller's observations on towns:
    Map published by French ethnographer G. Lejean[16] in 1861 shows that Albanians lived on around 57% of the territory of today's province while a similar map, published by British travellers G. M. Mackenzie and A. P. Irby[16] in 1867 shows slightly less; these maps don't show which population was larger overall. Nevethless, maps cannot be used to measure population as they leave out density.
    A study done in 1871 by Austrian colonel Peter Kukulj[17] for the internal use of the Austro-Hungarian army showed that the mutesarifluk of Prizren (corresponding largely to present-day Kosovo) had some 500,000 inhabitants, of which:
    Miloš S. Milojević travelled the region in 1871–1877 and left accounts which testify that Serbs were majority population, and were predominant in all cities, while Albanians were minority and lived mostly in villages.[18] According to his data, Albanians were majority population in southern Drenica (Muslim Albanians), and in region around Djakovica (Catholic Albanians), while the city was majorly Serbian. He also recorded several settlements of Turks, Romas and Circassians.
    Maps published by German historian Kiepert[16] in 1876, J. Hahn[16] and Austrian consul K. Sax,[16] show that Albanians live on most of the territory of today's province, however they don't show which population is larger. According to these, the regions of Kosovska Mitrovica and Kosovo Polje were settled mostly by Serbs, whereas most of the terrirory of western and eastern parts of today's province was settled by Muslim Albanians.
    An Austrian statistics[19] published in 1899 estimated:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovar#History
    This is my last entry in this '' debate '' , as I said those things are discussed for 100 times in Everything about Kosovo and Serbia mk1-mk4 threads, it's pointless to repeat same stuff all over again to people who will run away in first sight of facts and figures apearing.
    And what about FYROM, I think that 2/3 of it should be given to Albanians because they have historical and ethnical claimes over it, according to your map.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Kosovo/Serbia [Attilavolciak07 vs Milos98] Commentary Thread

    Do you need evidence that many Albanians(from Albanian) have come to Kosovo during Tito period?...and that they got the house and land,and that they are not paid electricity, taxes, education, hospitals ..and that police were not in some villages of tenth and more year!...And whether you know the incident with refugees from Albania?when they return refugees back to Albania,the Albanian army shot and killed hundreds of Alb. people!

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