what's about naval invasion?

[dancik]

hello,after some months i don't play now i hope to have more time and i ve loaded the new version (3.3.4+hotfix) and quickly play to see how AI makes naval invasion but when greeks invade italy (i've roman faction) the troops still stay waiting for a diplomatic to answer for a ceasefire!
is it impossible to solve this problem or i play too quickly and in other situations AI play differently? and AI play badly in this way only against a human player or against all? however i think this is a great problem for the realism of the game.

[Quinn Inuit]

The Greeks are still invading Italy? Grrr. They shouldn't be doing that anymore. How early/late in the game is this happening?

[dancik]

i played 3/4 turns without really moving, only pressing to make AI play.
I tried at the maximun campaign difficulty level hoping to be invaded to look how AI play (i thought to be invaded by cartaginians but greeks were near Ancona, maybe with cartaginians AI play differently?)

[dancik]

hello, maybe you forget about me, but i only would like to know if is possible to be really invaded from the sea or not? in these days i read the news in the forum but i didn't find nothing about it

[despot_of_rhodes]

In my past 3 campaigns the Greeks used to declare war and then a ceasefire with Egyptians almost every turn. When i was playing Epirots, they had a quite big army in Rhodes, but didn´t manage to take it, because of such diplomatic behavior - and when i destroyed their faction, that army got Rebell. The Egyptian garrison was never bigger than 3 units

The Greeks use naval invasions quite well, except the fact, that they just can´t manage to invade somehow.

[dancik]

this is a great problem for realism of the game.
for example i usually play with romans and i know if i have all Italy
noone can come from the sea!! (simulate punic wars is impossible, etc. etc.). I'm afraid there is no solution

[Jamey]

this is a great problem for realism of the game.
for example i usually play with romans and i know if i have all Italy
noone can come from the sea!! (simulate punic wars is impossible, etc. etc.). I'm afraid there is no solution

I see Carthage navally invade Italy all the time. It isn't generally successful at it, but it does land troops.

[Sardaukar One]

In my Epirote and Numidian campaign, the Greeks were obsessed with taking Malta.
As Epirus I held Malta and they lost a lot of troops at sea trying to attack Malta.
I didn't realize Malta was so vital to Greek interests!

In both campaigns its no more than 30 years into the game.

[pannonian]

I see Carthage navally invade Italy all the time. It isn't generally successful at it, but it does land troops.

Can you test a campaign with Aleria rebel instead of Carthaginian? I'm wondering whether the inclusion of Aleria puts Capua into the Carthaginian sphere of influence, so it tries to join up the dots between its provinces.

[Quinn Inuit]

Yes, Carthage shouldn't be pre-emptively invading Italy anymore with prefers_naval_invasions off. I can turn it off for Greeks, too, but that may make the game much more boring.

[dancik]

but the problem is not if greek or carthaginians invade Italy, history can change and game is more interesting, but is after invasion because invaders don't siege towns or fight, they only wait for their diplomatic asking peace!!

for jamey: "your" carthaginians had different behaviour ?

i think this happens not only after naval invasion but always when an army is isolated (ex. if an army go across a country, allied or not, to invade another farther country)

[Jamey]

but the problem is not if greek or carthaginians invade Italy, history can change and game is more interesting, but is after invasion because invaders don't siege towns or fight, they only wait for their diplomatic asking peace!!

for jamey: "your" carthaginians had different behaviour ?

i think this happens not only after naval invasion but always when an army is isolated (ex. if an army go across a country, allied or not, to invade another farther country)

The AI's problem appears to be that the strategic and diplomatic AI are relatively unconnected. Our best guess is that if the two factions share a land border anywhere, the AI will finish the siege. If the two factions do not share a land border, the AI attacker will generally not build siege engines and it will sue for peace or accept pretty much any peace deal. There isn't anything we can do about this, unfortunately.

[dancik]

i was afraid of it ! but is it impossible to simulate the sea like a shared border? or something different ! i remember Medieval hadn't this problem, probably contacting software house they can do a little upgrade because i think this problem exist also without mods

[decimator22]

you can mod the region border to occupy part of another region, trigging war. I suggested this, but some other changes were made to Carthage.

[dancik]

sorry, but i don't understand what i can do! can you explain with more details?
and who made changes to Carthage and what?

[Delvecchio1975]

dancik, the only thing that seems to have an influence on invasions from the sea seems to be the prefers_naval_invasion trait. it's not brilliant, as nations who have it (carthaginians, illyrians, ... ) tend to drop an army on the shore, declare war, imediately make peace and withdraw - and then start again. on a few occasions i have seen them work, carthage occupying capua, or the illyrians occupying ancona, or the greeks occupying rhodes. you need to play a few campaigns before you'll be lucky to watch something like that though.

a nasty problem with the trait is that the AI loses sight of its homeland and sends all its soldiers onto ships. consequently numidia overruns carthage, macedon kills the greeks, and thracians overrun the illyrians ...

turning off the trait results in "boring seas", IMHO. i did it for the carthaginians and the illyrians while on a roman campaign (got tired of the constant visits in italy), but then it becomes a walkover, and a bit linear - city by city until you reach lilybaeum.

to answer your question: I think you can't do much. the changes you're asking about is that in the future Carthage will not prefer naval invasions anymore, so it won't drop a gazillion armies on your shores (Jamey/Quinn: right?). hopefully it will not be caned by the numidians in nearly every campaign then.

[dancik]

maybe an extended use of landbridges to allow peoples who historically
made naval invasions can help the problem?!
i m thinking for example about a landbridge from africa to sicily
and to sicily to peninsula
eventually with the rule: invasion is not possible with the presence
in the bridge of defending enemy ships (i m thinking about something similar to Medieval but i don't know if it is possible and how AI works after this)

[Quinn Inuit]

The BI exe makes the AI a little better about naval invasions, too.

Carthage already should not prefer_naval. I'm going to do a comprehensive review of their early game cash flow for the next version, though. Apparently there are some issues with that, so addressing those might make them more competitive.

[Delvecchio1975]

The BI exe makes the AI a little better about naval invasions, too.

Carthage already should not prefer_naval. I'm going to do a comprehensive review of their early game cash flow for the next version, though. Apparently there are some issues with that, so addressing those might make them more competitive.

well, in order to survive financially with Carthage during the first few years, i kill all my horses. The AI obviously doesn't do that, so it empties the coffers in one turn I guess. The Seleucids have the same problem, but they have a decent starting army that sometimes keeps the empire's head above water. the Carthaginians have that band of spearman in Sicily that cracks its teeth on Agrigento, and then it's game over for them ...

[Jamey]

well, in order to survive financially with Carthage during the first few years, i kill all my horses. The AI obviously doesn't do that, so it empties the coffers in one turn I guess. The Seleucids have the same problem, but they have a decent starting army that sometimes keeps the empire's head above water. the Carthaginians have that band of spearman in Sicily that cracks its teeth on Agrigento, and then it's game over for them ...

Once we finalize the map, I think we need to go through faction by faction like I have with the Barbarians and make sure that each nation's starting position works, both for the AI and for the human player. It's a lot of work, but I think it's necessary.