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  1. #1
    dqualk's Avatar Civis
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    Default Byzantine Empire... ROMAN Empire... ideas

    It would be cool if the Byzantines seemed more Roman. Maybe give them a cool red and gold color and a double headed eagle for the symbol. Also, it would be interesting if there were more perks for reconquering Rome, for any faction, you could add two or so wonders in Rome maybe? that would be cool.

    Also, I would like to see the Orhodox factions get some of the cool options that the Catholic factions get e.g. Knightly Orders (or monastic), church hierarchy thing, crusades. Maybe you could make it where the Orthodox factions have the option of being quazi Catholic, bascially Catholic in programming and Orthodox in name, I don't know if thats possible. You know like instead of a Pope have a Patriarch and a bunch of Archbishops(cardinals).

    Also, the speeches the Byzantine generals give are so lame I wish they could be spiced up a bit.

    I like the trade fair and church council options one gets in Stainless Steel I hope you borrow it, if your allowed to, because it gives the feeling that the Orthodox church has the influence to participate in Ecumenical meetings.

    Also, mentioned earlier in "Byzantine under the Pope" the thing about the Pope submitting to the Emperor or vice versa would be really cool.

  2. #2
    Giorgios's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Byzantine Empire... ROMAN Empire... ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by dqualk View Post
    It would be cool if the Byzantines seemed more Roman. Maybe give them a cool red and gold color and a double headed eagle for the symbol. Also, it would be interesting if there were more perks for reconquering Rome, for any faction, you could add two or so wonders in Rome maybe? that would be cool.

    Also, I would like to see the Orhodox factions get some of the cool options that the Catholic factions get e.g. Knightly Orders (or monastic), church hierarchy thing, crusades. Maybe you could make it where the Orthodox factions have the option of being quazi Catholic, bascially Catholic in programming and Orthodox in name, I don't know if thats possible. You know like instead of a Pope have a Patriarch and a bunch of Archbishops(cardinals).

    Also, the speeches the Byzantine generals give are so lame I wish they could be spiced up a bit.

    I like the trade fair and church council options one gets in Stainless Steel I hope you borrow it, if your allowed to, because it gives the feeling that the Orthodox church has the influence to participate in Ecumenical meetings.

    Also, mentioned earlier in "Byzantine under the Pope" the thing about the Pope submitting to the Emperor or vice versa would be really cool.
    I agree with all the above, but please no double headed eagle! Make their symbol a Chi-Rho, like in CBUR!

  3. #3
    dqualk's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Byzantine Empire... ROMAN Empire... ideas

    A chi-rho would be bad a as well!

  4. #4
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Byzantine Empire... ROMAN Empire... ideas

    DotS will start with CBUR's units and symbols...
    One reason I created CBUR was to help mods like DotS (that was the First that honored me by making me a member of that great team more than one year now)!Afcourse if someone in future versions of DotS will come up with more accurate units or even better skins i will be the first that will be happy with it!!!
    To let you know...I am the second oldest member of DotS (and the official traitor of it ofcourse)...
    Beleive me ...the result will be more than exelent with the number of all those worthy creators and contributors that gathered in this mod!
    The mod may passed some dificult times but now everything goes well and soon you all see the 1st results!
    (The mod's traitor)...
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

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    Default Re: Byzantine Empire... ROMAN Empire... ideas

    yay! more good news for dots!

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    Walkman810i's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Byzantine Empire... ROMAN Empire... ideas

    This can't get any better cause it's already one big awesomeness... or can it?


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Byzantine Empire... ROMAN Empire... ideas

    One of the interesting things about the Byzantine Empire was that it is often rather misunderstood in the west and as far as the Greeks are concerned, often dismissed as an aberation or regarded with a great deal more sentimentalistic nostalgia than it merits.

    It was a nation, like any other, and had to it's advantage a long standing history which gave it much in the way of tradition. And it needed all the tradition it could get since it's government, still very Roman, was as unstable as anything. Coups and overthrows of dynasties were a routine matter as well as a host of enemies constantly poking and pushing on the borders.

    The Byzantine army is often poo poohed as retrograde by the 14th century but it must be remembered that the nation was in a constant state of decline from 1075 on and they simply could not modernize as quickly given their economic situation.

    What needs to be done to give the Player the authentic Byzantine experience is a much higher level of unrest and a host of enemies. The Byzantines must be consantly having to deal with aggressive neighbors on all borders, especially the Moslems, but also raiders from the north as well. Everyone wanted a piece of Constantinople's legendary wealth, even the Vikings were initially attracted south to 'get at' that wealth before the power and pomp of Byzantium awed them into a simplistic devotion, e.g. the Varangian Guard.

    The point is that a player will have to be very good in order to keep Byzantium capable of surviving given the inheret unrest which was endemic to the Empire as well as the constant threats to it's territorial integrety.

    At the same time some other factors should be incorporated if possible.

    Alliance with the Vatican - if this is achieved, the Orthodox Church should be regarded as merely another variation of the Catholic Church and Catholic populations in the Byzantine Empire should not be a source of unrest. Likewise the Vatican will be loath to break this alliance with the Empire. The reunification of the church was a persistant Vatican goal from 1054 on and every opportunity to achieve it was undertaken by the Vatican.

    Technological advances - The Byzantine Army should have access to gun powder units once they become available. Byzantium did not hesitate to adjust their military technology to meet the threats of the day. But because they faced different threats on different borders, it was often a compromise unit which came to the field as the Empire's manpower and financial capabilities dwindled. The west brought heavy infantry and cavalry which had devistating impact charges, and the moslems brought light harrasment units which depended on distance and speed to kill. Hence should the player prove capable of keeping the Empire intact and at least stable in size he should see cannon, handgunnes, arquebusses, matchlocks, and likewise, wheellock cavalry. He should also be able to produce some form of pike unit, both professional and milita. The difference should be that the Byzantines will never be as armored as the western units, but they will remain more moble on the battle field. Light infantry and cavalry should be the order of the day.

    As a result, the gunpowder units of Byzantium will be less powerful. They will be more designed for assembly at the site of the siege. Battle field cannon will be more moble than western cannon and possess a slightly faster fire rate, but also possessing less range and damage capabilities.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Byzantine Empire... ROMAN Empire... ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippon View Post
    One of the interesting things about the Byzantine Empire was that it is often rather misunderstood in the west and as far as the Greeks are concerned, often dismissed as an aberation or regarded with a great deal more sentimentalistic nostalgia than it merits.

    It was a nation, like any other, and had to it's advantage a long standing history which gave it much in the way of tradition. And it needed all the tradition it could get since it's government, still very Roman, was as unstable as anything. Coups and overthrows of dynasties were a routine matter as well as a host of enemies constantly poking and pushing on the borders.

    The Byzantine army is often poo poohed as retrograde by the 14th century but it must be remembered that the nation was in a constant state of decline from 1075 on and they simply could not modernize as quickly given their economic situation.

    What needs to be done to give the Player the authentic Byzantine experience is a much higher level of unrest and a host of enemies. The Byzantines must be consantly having to deal with aggressive neighbors on all borders, especially the Moslems, but also raiders from the north as well. Everyone wanted a piece of Constantinople's legendary wealth, even the Vikings were initially attracted south to 'get at' that wealth before the power and pomp of Byzantium awed them into a simplistic devotion, e.g. the Varangian Guard.

    The point is that a player will have to be very good in order to keep Byzantium capable of surviving given the inheret unrest which was endemic to the Empire as well as the constant threats to it's territorial integrety.

    At the same time some other factors should be incorporated if possible.

    Alliance with the Vatican - if this is achieved, the Orthodox Church should be regarded as merely another variation of the Catholic Church and Catholic populations in the Byzantine Empire should not be a source of unrest. Likewise the Vatican will be loath to break this alliance with the Empire. The reunification of the church was a persistant Vatican goal from 1054 on and every opportunity to achieve it was undertaken by the Vatican.

    Technological advances - The Byzantine Army should have access to gun powder units once they become available. Byzantium did not hesitate to adjust their military technology to meet the threats of the day. But because they faced different threats on different borders, it was often a compromise unit which came to the field as the Empire's manpower and financial capabilities dwindled. The west brought heavy infantry and cavalry which had devistating impact charges, and the moslems brought light harrasment units which depended on distance and speed to kill. Hence should the player prove capable of keeping the Empire intact and at least stable in size he should see cannon, handgunnes, arquebusses, matchlocks, and likewise, wheellock cavalry. He should also be able to produce some form of pike unit, both professional and milita. The difference should be that the Byzantines will never be as armored as the western units, but they will remain more moble on the battle field. Light infantry and cavalry should be the order of the day.

    As a result, the gunpowder units of Byzantium will be less powerful. They will be more designed for assembly at the site of the siege. Battle field cannon will be more moble than western cannon and possess a slightly faster fire rate, but also possessing less range and damage capabilities.
    I kind of agree with you here, and I like the idea of the Byzantines having access to more advanced units, but I think a lot should depend on the economic situation of the player, as the relative poverty of the late Byzantine empire was one of the main drawbacks to their advancement.

    Meanwhile, if the player makes the ERE / Byzantium one of the leading powers of Europe again, I think they should have access to the latest technology.

    Aswell as this, I also agree that most of the Byzantine units should maybe be slightlyless well-armoured than, and should definitely have a very different fighting style to their Western counterparts...

    Some very valid and interesting points... + rep
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Byzantine Empire... ROMAN Empire... ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippon View Post
    One of the interesting things about the Byzantine Empire was that it is often rather misunderstood in the west and as far as the Greeks are concerned, often dismissed as an aberation or regarded with a great deal more sentimentalistic nostalgia than it merits.

    It was a nation, like any other, and had to it's advantage a long standing history which gave it much in the way of tradition. And it needed all the tradition it could get since it's government, still very Roman, was as unstable as anything. Coups and overthrows of dynasties were a routine matter as well as a host of enemies constantly poking and pushing on the borders.

    The Byzantine army is often poo poohed as retrograde by the 14th century but it must be remembered that the nation was in a constant state of decline from 1075 on and they simply could not modernize as quickly given their economic situation.

    What needs to be done to give the Player the authentic Byzantine experience is a much higher level of unrest and a host of enemies. The Byzantines must be consantly having to deal with aggressive neighbors on all borders, especially the Moslems, but also raiders from the north as well. Everyone wanted a piece of Constantinople's legendary wealth, even the Vikings were initially attracted south to 'get at' that wealth before the power and pomp of Byzantium awed them into a simplistic devotion, e.g. the Varangian Guard.

    The point is that a player will have to be very good in order to keep Byzantium capable of surviving given the inheret unrest which was endemic to the Empire as well as the constant threats to it's territorial integrety.

    At the same time some other factors should be incorporated if possible.

    Alliance with the Vatican - if this is achieved, the Orthodox Church should be regarded as merely another variation of the Catholic Church and Catholic populations in the Byzantine Empire should not be a source of unrest. Likewise the Vatican will be loath to break this alliance with the Empire. The reunification of the church was a persistant Vatican goal from 1054 on and every opportunity to achieve it was undertaken by the Vatican.

    Technological advances - The Byzantine Army should have access to gun powder units once they become available. Byzantium did not hesitate to adjust their military technology to meet the threats of the day. But because they faced different threats on different borders, it was often a compromise unit which came to the field as the Empire's manpower and financial capabilities dwindled. The west brought heavy infantry and cavalry which had devistating impact charges, and the moslems brought light harrasment units which depended on distance and speed to kill. Hence should the player prove capable of keeping the Empire intact and at least stable in size he should see cannon, handgunnes, arquebusses, matchlocks, and likewise, wheellock cavalry. He should also be able to produce some form of pike unit, both professional and milita. The difference should be that the Byzantines will never be as armored as the western units, but they will remain more moble on the battle field. Light infantry and cavalry should be the order of the day.

    As a result, the gunpowder units of Byzantium will be less powerful. They will be more designed for assembly at the site of the siege. Battle field cannon will be more moble than western cannon and possess a slightly faster fire rate, but also possessing less range and damage capabilities.
    Some really nice points, but I can't argue much in regard of Byzantium; most of these pieces of information seem relevant to the issues that the Byzantine Empire had to deal with so nice contribution.
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  10. #10
    Shadow_Imperator's Avatar Italo/Aussie hayseed
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    Default Re: Byzantine Empire... ROMAN Empire... ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippon View Post
    Technological advances - The Byzantine Army should have access to gun powder units once they become available. Byzantium did not hesitate to adjust their military technology to meet the threats of the day. But because they faced different threats on different borders, it was often a compromise unit which came to the field as the Empire's manpower and financial capabilities dwindled. The west brought heavy infantry and cavalry which had devistating impact charges, and the moslems brought light harrasment units which depended on distance and speed to kill. Hence should the player prove capable of keeping the Empire intact and at least stable in size he should see cannon, handgunnes, arquebusses, matchlocks, and likewise, wheellock cavalry. He should also be able to produce some form of pike unit, both professional and milita. The difference should be that the Byzantines will never be as armored as the western units, but they will remain more moble on the battle field. Light infantry and cavalry should be the order of the day.
    I don't agree as such that 'all' Byzantine units should just be 'less armoured' than their western counterparts.. Really, it should be the Byzantine Empire that should have one of the more comprehensive unit rosters, however, mods mods (let alone stand-alone games) leave a heck of a lot to be desired in this regard..

    I terms of deploying Pikemen, the Byzanitne did in fact at times, use Pikemen in battle/campaign. The Menavlatoi would probably be the most common, Nikephorus Phocas used them to great success against all enemies on all fronts in the mid 10th century. Sources do draw a very distint method of production, use and deployment of the weapon, even the men selected to train with it and use it in battle.

    I quote:
    One type of spear, the menaulion, is described in detail; it was very thick, taken whole from young oak or cornel saplings and capped by a long blade (45-50 cm), for use by especially strong infantrymen (called menaulatoi after their weapon) against enemy kataphraktoi - an excellent example of a weapon and a type of specialized soldier developed for a specific tactical role.
    Although the exact equipment of the 'Kontaratoi' is not exactly know, it is very possible that this unit could've been trained and deployed with Pikes, if not at least with long/very long spears. They probably would've fought in a very similar manner to the Menavlatoi, who in turn were trained to fight in the all way of the Greco-Macedonian phalanx of antiquity. The least known of these units would be the 'Rhomphaiaphoroi', armed with a pike/halberd/falx hybrid type weapon. The 'Rhomphaia' isn't a well known weapon, used mainly between Byzantium's golden age of 900AD-1071AD.

    I've got some info on the various thematic and tagamtic troops of the Empire, I don't have the info on hand, I'll have to post later. It pretty much in regard to Byzantine cavalry (heavy and light), heavy infantry, spearmen, archers and skirmishers, it is pretty intereting, I'll be sure to continue on..
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  11. #11
    sirfiggin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Byzantine Empire... ROMAN Empire... ideas

    the mod with one of the best byzantine rosters is chivalry II for Kingdoms, you should take heed of the unit mix they have, especially the menavlatoi
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  12. #12
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Byzantine Empire... ROMAN Empire... ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by sirfiggin View Post
    the mod with one of the best byzantine rosters is chivalry II for Kingdoms, you should take heed of the unit mix they have, especially the menavlatoi
    Menaulatoi simply DID NOT EXIST in the time frame DotS has!!!
    You will see menaylatoi at the "Nikephorian Army Units Roster" of CBUR project...Click on my sig for more info!
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  13. #13

    Default Re: Byzantine Empire... ROMAN Empire... ideas

    is there no change the byzantines ,if they succeed in the campaign, to eguip their units with some kind of plate armours or partly plate armour ?So they can strengthen them ? Or they will have to depend their defence in mostly, outsiders, mercenaries (alamani, normans and the like) until the end? . i mean historically the rest balkan countries which were very influenced by byzantium, like serbia or wallachia, were starting to eguip themselves with such armoury ,as long as they had the money and power or assistance, until they were occupied (partially or no) by ottomans. Couldn't romans follow a same root, for their units, if they had the money and the succeess in their disposal? (sorry for the awful english)

  14. #14
    Basileos's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Byzantine Empire... ROMAN Empire... ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by silverarmon View Post
    is there no change the byzantines ,if they succeed in the campaign, to eguip their units with some kind of plate armours or partly plate armour ?So they can strengthen them ? Or they will have to depend their defence in mostly, outsiders, mercenaries (alamani, normans and the like) until the end? . i mean historically the rest balkan countries which were very influenced by byzantium, like serbia or wallachia, were starting to eguip themselves with such armoury ,as long as they had the money and power or assistance, until they were occupied (partially or no) by ottomans. Couldn't romans follow a same root, for their units, if they had the money and the succeess in their disposal? (sorry for the awful english)
    Well we will use the units of CBUR and i don't realy know if they ar able to have plate-armour.but they have some units who are italian-style, which means that they have 14th century armour.

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  15. #15
    The Noble Lord's Avatar Holy Arab Nation
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    Default Re: Byzantine Empire... ROMAN Empire... ideas

    Some cool ideas there, it looks like that Byzantine faction is shaping up to be very impressive in this mod.


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