Kosovo/Serbia debate [Attilavolciak07 vs Milos98] {fini}

**~~attilavolciak07~~** · October 09, 2008, 04:34 PM

Okay, I want to propose a debate about the Kosovo independence issue. I have noticed Farnan's debate about the future of Kosovo however I plan to go more into the independence itself rather than what Kosovo will amount to. I am okay with debating with two or three peoples as I know many are vocal on this issue. And in case you don't know about my history-I support the Kosovarian independence.

Now as many of you 'followers' of the region know, the Albanian people are most commonly thought of as being the descendents of the ancient Illyrians (and some say they had traces of Thracian and Dacian blood as well). Here is what Encyclopædia Britannica says:

The origins of the Albanian people are not definitely known, but data drawn from history and from linguistic, archaeological, and anthropological studies have led to the conclusion that Albanians are the direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians. Similarly, the Albanian languagederives from the languge of the Illyrians, the transition from Illyrian to Albanian apparently occurring between the 4th and 6th centuries ce.

Linguistic:

Illyrian word brisa, "husk of grapes"; Albanian bërsí meaning "lees, dregs; mash"

Illyrian word loúgeon, "pool"; Albanian lag "to wet, soak, bathe, wash"

Illyrian word mandos, "small horse"; Albanian mëz, mâz "poney",

Many other Illyrian lexical items have been adopted into the official Albanian language as well.

Stated in Jirecek, Konstantin. "The history of the Serbians" (Geschichte der Serben), Gotha, 1911

Drawn from history: (taken from Wiki)

In the 2nd century BC, the History of the World written by Polybius, mentions a city named Arbon in present day central Albania. The people who lived there were called Arbanios and Arbanitai.
In the 1st century AD, Pliny mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses.
In the 2nd century AD, Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolis (located Northeast of Durres). Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around this city.

I put the writers in blue just to negate your possible claims of saying Wikipedia isn't reliable.

Now I hope none of you reject that Albanoi sounds very, very similar to Albanian. Also note that Ptolemy mentions they are an Illyrian tribe. Of course this one tribe doesn't apply to all the Illyrians, as many lived in the Dalmatian coast as well, however the fact that cities called Albanopolis and tribes called Albanoi lived in present-day Albania just seems to me like automatic proof.

The earliest Serbian source to mention the Albanians came in 1198 in "Thalloczy/Jirecek/Sufflay, Acta et diplomata res Albaniae mediae aetatis, Vindobonae, MCMXIII, I, 113" Around one hundred years later, this was taken from a Ragusan document:

"Audivi unam vocem clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca" (I heard a voice crying in the mountains in the Albanian language).

In relation with Kosovo:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Atlas Général Vidal-Lablache, Paris, 1898. This is a Balkan ethnicity map, if you take a look you can see that the Albanian domain reaches into Kosovo.

Here is a map of present-day Albania as well as the historical ethnic composition of Albanians. And if I can read correctly (and I assume I can) it looks like Kosovo seems to be shaded which notes that ethnic Albanians historically and currently inhabited it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

1923, William R. Shepherd.

And if we skip about 20 years later to the time of the second world war, we see the Italian-conquered Albania as this

And the more recent ethnic composition:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Did this string of maps point something out to you? The point is that Albanians have been living here for hundreds of years, and their ancestors the Illyrians have lived in Kosovo as well. They have been living here for a very long time and should get the benefit of having the independence for their country or have a reunion with Albania.

Okay, this concludes my opening statements.

----

Link to Commentary Thread.

**Milos98** · October 12, 2008, 03:08 PM

So this debate should be about... what?
Youre trying to prove that all Ilyrians are Albanians ?
If so than I accept it.

**~~attilavolciak07~~** · October 12, 2008, 03:09 PM

No, I was proving Illyrians were Albanians because many pro-Serbians were denying that in the threads, so I'd thought I would start with that.

**Milos98** · October 12, 2008, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by attilavolciak07

No, I was proving Illyrians were Albanians because many pro-Serbians were denying that in the threads, so I'd thought I would start with that.

Illyrians werent albanians, but the chance is that Albanians are Illyrians, so you were wrong in your first sentence.
There was the Albanoi, "Albanian" tribe in central Albania, and they became Albanians.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Illyrians.jpg

When Slavs came to Kosovo, there werent albanians inhabiting it, those were Illyrian tribes ( the not albani ones ).
So you should make some things clear, for example if Serbs extinct and if Kosovo gets populated with Macedonians ( its just an example ), macedonians could say that Slavs populated these places long time ago before turks came, so they ( Macedonians ) have historical right to be here, even if those Slavs were Serbs, it doesent matter because Macedonians have some words in common with them?
Slavs - Serbs, Russians, Bulgarians itd
Illyrians - Albanoi, Lopsi, Deuri etc

**~~attilavolciak07~~** · October 14, 2008, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Milos98

Illyrians werent albanians, but the chance is that Albanians are Illyrians, so you were wrong in your first sentence.
There was the Albanoi, "Albanian" tribe in central Albania, and they became Albanians.

The Albanoi and similar linguistic and cultural tribes that are accounted for the relation and ancestry of modern Albanians lived in the general area of both Kosovo, Albania and some of Montenegro.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I don't know if you can see that in depth for it, if you need a more focused version I can get one. It is a map of the area during the times of the Illyrians (map made by Alexander G. Findlay's Classical Atlas to Illustrate Ancient Geography, New York, 1849), it shows the Albanoi and similar tribes in the modern space of Albania however if you look more to the north of the mountanous nation you will see a good part of Kosovo (about near Pristina) is under these tribes influence.

The Albanoi weren't an Albanian tribe, they were an Illyrian tribes that would later dominate the region and thus the new peoples took the name of the tribe.

**Milos98** · October 15, 2008, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by attilavolciak07

The Albanoi and similar linguistic and cultural tribes that are accounted for the relation and ancestry of modern Albanians lived in the general area of both Kosovo, Albania and some of Montenegro.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I don't know if you can see that in depth for it, if you need a more focused version I can get one. It is a map of the area during the times of the Illyrians (map made by Alexander G. Findlay's Classical Atlas to Illustrate Ancient Geography, New York, 1849), it shows the Albanoi and similar tribes in the modern space of Albania however if you look more to the north of the mountanous nation you will see a good part of Kosovo (about near Pristina) is under these tribes influence.

The Albanoi weren't an Albanian tribe, they were an Illyrian tribes that would later dominate the region and thus the new peoples took the name of the tribe.

From which year is that map? And I dont want to trouble you, but could you close it up just a little bit?
Youre map shows that Kosovo was in Moesia supperior province.
As far as I know, Kosovo was populated with Dardani tribe, which was half Thracian and half Illyrian tribe. So my point is, if there were Dardanis today still alive, they would have kind of a historical right over Kosovo.
But because all Illyrian tribes assimilated with Slavs and others, except Albanoi from central Albania, I dont see why Albanians would have right to have it.
And if you look at this one, you would see that Kosovo ( Dardania ) wasnt together with Albanois or Illyrian province.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

And before I continue this debate, explain this picture, your text below, the time period in which albanians historically populated this land...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Milos98** · October 18, 2008, 03:09 AM

Take your time...

**Senno** · October 12, 2008, 03:29 PM

Please clearly state the topic of debate clearly, Attilavolciak07. It appears you have a challenger.

**~~attilavolciak07~~** · October 19, 2008, 04:33 PM

Sorry, I should be finished with a university paper soon and can be more active on the site.

Here is the map link, the best is a Wikipedia one and zoom in on the Albania area:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...furbished.jpeg

It is a map in 1849 which uses ancient authors calculations for the countries and tribal areas at the time. The whole of Albania and Kosovo area is under the Illyrian influence. You are correct that Northwestern Kosovo was a part of Dardania, but the map shows where the Illyrian tribes were.

And if you look at this one, you would see that Kosovo ( Dardania ) wasnt together with Albanois or Illyrian province.

That is a map regarding the Roman province, Dardania is an offset Moesia Superior. The Roman provinces were different from the original groupings, example, the Macedonian province extends into Albania where historically the Illyrians were and Epirots etc.

And before I continue this debate, explain this picture, your text below, the time period in which albanians historically populated this land...

The map shows where ethnic Albanians (not Illyrians) have populated in a majority since their existence. But since we are discussing the ancient times more we can save that for later.

**Milos98** · October 20, 2008, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by attilavolciak07

Here is the map link, the best is a Wikipedia one and zoom in on the Albania area:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...furbished.jpeg

It is a map in 1849 which uses ancient authors calculations for the countries and tribal areas at the time. The whole of Albania and Kosovo area is under the Illyrian influence. You are correct that Northwestern Kosovo was a part of Dardania, but the map shows where the Illyrian tribes were.

You still didnt answer the question, from which year the map is.
Still, you can see a large name Dardania over Kosovo, and Dardanis were considered Illyrian tribe too, altrough they had some Thracian blood.
There isnt any Albanian name mentioned, except Albani, from what could we say todays central albania, which confirms the fact that Albani didnt live in Kosovo. And about the borders of that map, Illyrians lived in nowadays Bosnia and Croatia ( and Slovenia... ) too, so why dont you debate about whole Yugoslavia ( all Illyria ) being "historically" populated by Albanis?
And Roman maps were pretty accurate, its almost the same as the one you posted, the only thing is that Romans reasonably included whole Dardania into one province.

Untill you bring me a map which says that Albanis or Albanians or whatever, with credibility, I cant debate about ancient ages
So why dont you confirm credibility of this picture with year of it, and source from where you got this picture. As it doesent look like anything I cant take it as a map, so I will call it a picture.

**~~attilavolciak07~~** · October 24, 2008, 03:56 PM

And about the borders of that map, Illyrians lived in nowadays Bosnia and Croatia ( and Slovenia... ) too, so why dont you debate about whole Yugoslavia ( all Illyria ) being "historically" populated by Albanis?

Near that region, the Illyrian language was somewhat related to Albanian but not quite. Primarily, the ancestors of the Albanians is in the north Albania, Montenegro, Kosovo region.

And Roman maps were pretty accurate, its almost the same as the one you posted, the only thing is that Romans reasonably included whole Dardania into one province.

I'm sure the Greeks would disagree here because then Macedonia included the Rep. of Macedonia. The Roman province of Dardania was a small area, used for census (other minor factors as well), while the actual province was Moesia Superior.

So why dont you confirm credibility of this picture with year of it, and source from where you got this picture. As it doesent look like anything I cant take it as a map, so I will call it a picture.

It's from a Serbian/Greek site (click on the properties to view the source), thought it might be interesting to show thinking the origin of it. It represents the where ethnic Albanians have historically populated, not the Illyrians. It starts from around 1500. It's a map, that's why there are countries and borders etc.

And could you respond to the information from Polybius, Pliny and Ptolemy as well as the similarities in language between the Albanian and Illyrian language?

**Milos98** · October 25, 2008, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by attilavolciak07

Near that region, the Illyrian language was somewhat related to Albanian but not quite. Primarily, the ancestors of the Albanians is in the north Albania, Montenegro, Kosovo region.
I'm sure the Greeks would disagree here because then Macedonia included the Rep. of Macedonia. The Roman province of Dardania was a small area, used for census (other minor factors as well), while the actual province was Moesia Superior.
It's from a Serbian/Greek site (click on the properties to view the source), thought it might be interesting to show thinking the origin of it. It represents the where ethnic Albanians have historically populated, not the Illyrians. It starts from around 1500. It's a map, that's why there are countries and borders etc.

And could you respond to the information from Polybius, Pliny and Ptolemy as well as the similarities in language between the Albanian and Illyrian language?

And Illyrians behind that region spoke german?
Can you post any sources that Montenegro and Kosovo were inhabited by albanian ancestors?
Whats wrong with FYROM included in Macedonia province?
Dardania, todays Kosovo was included in Moesia Supperior province.
Whats wrong with that?

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Al...s/galbania.gif ???
A map... lol 150 Years before that map, tzar Stefan Dusan had an Empire on that land. Was he an Albanian king ruling Albanians?
Are you from those Albanian addicts who believe that Milos Obilic was Millesh Kopilli and there never was any Serbia, only Albanians who named themselves Serbs, because of the nicer name?

What about Polyblius and others?
Of course that there are similarities, what did you expect? Illyrian tribe Albanoi was some kind of an albanian ancester tribe, an what now, is it so very relevant, does that mean Albanians populated Kosovo? Serbian language is very similar to proto-Slavic, but that doesent mean that Russians should be considered Serbs.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...furbished.jpeg
This map could be used as my source as it proves my point, that albani were just a small tribe in central albania, and this borders arent connected in any was with albanians or albanis.
Even Partkini have bigger letters than albanis...