Suleiman "The Magnificent" [Carl & Noble Lord vs Ali & Saneel] Commentary Thread

[Senno]

Please use this thread for commentary on their debate, do not debate in their thread, as per local forum rules.

Link to Debate Thread.

[Orko]

and it was Suleiman that ruled this massive empire and he expanded it, besides winning battles on the battlefield. that are attributes of greates general.

he did rule a massive empire, beside the fact he had an enourmous army to start eith and a large empire. and he lost battles, and never was outnumbered, and many times got more men on his side killed than on the other side

[Carl von Döbeln]

[Orko]

You can have luck once, but you cant have it always. Ottoman empire was the strongest in that period, HRE was just a shadow.

that doesn't mean Suleiman the magnificent was a great general

[Baron Vlad Felix]

that doesn't mean Suleiman the magnificent was a great general

exactly!...and you win!

[TWoxy]

Carl has this so far, hands down.

[Pallantides]

Carl owns this one

[Baron Vlad Felix]

Carl Von Döbeln... I support you!

[Carl von Döbeln]

Thanks for the support.

[Erwin Rommel]

Well i read, and i see, they are not territoraly,scientific, or in any of categories better than Ottoman empire. If Vienna would fall, probably those two "empires" would meet

Yes, they are not "territoraly" So thats his main argument? Just because ot cant compare in size with the Ottomans doenst mean the Swedes are that not better.

Gustavus was better monarch? Was Gustavos "The magnificent" or Suleiman? Who rulled bigger, stronger empire? Who besiged "the capital of Europe" Vienna? If would Vienna fallen, maybe those two would meat on the field .

Too bad...........Vienna didint fall. it would have been nice to "meat" 'em.

Yes it does, because he expanded his empire for thousands of kilometers. He almost took "the capital of Europe" Vienna, and he would have take it, if the united European army would come to aid.

WHich one? The Siege of Vienna where theres only 17,000 against 120,000 of course Turk defeat(NO "United European Army" there all where just Austria, with Bohemian,German, and Spanish mercenaries) or that other one, the Battle of Vienna, of course turk defeat..........wait the Battle of Veinna didnt have Suleiman so its the "Siege of Vienna", but theres not United Europe there as well. :hmmm:..........................

You say...what! With this you say that he is great general and sweden great power! Oh my God! They are both noobs for Ottomans hehe

Yes of course.......noobs.............................hehe.


Lol WUT?



OH I can imagine it now, those people will be buzzing around the FOreign Lang. Section or that Turkish Public Social group


Good work Carl. Make some really good emphasis but bludgeoning the thread with endless pics of turk defeat at the Siege/Battle of Vienna or whatever battle..

[Ummon]

Much on the simple side until now, but all for Von Dobeln.

[Kallum]

I hope you don't mind that I interfere but the two timeperiods you are discussion are both the two golden ages of both of the two empires.

Under Suleiman the Ottoman empire reached it's peak while Sweden was then a minority on the chess board that's europe

Sweden was under Adolphus in steady progress of becoming a wordly power while the position of the Ottoman Empire became of less importance. By this time period the empire couldn't keep up with the technological advance that the Europeian lands did.

Now to put the two at the peak of their might agains each other.

Looking at the quality of the armies, you have one minor typical West Europeian armies while one major Eastern army.

Suleiman was an average general certainly no caesar or Alexander but he wan't a bad general. He did conquered Rhodos but as Carl pointed out after huge losses. But you should consider that the fortress at Rhodos was one of the strongest fortresses at the time and the army of Suleiman certainly wasn't. Suleiman conquered Hungary after defeating King Louis II of Hungary but he lost it quickly to the Austrians of the Habsburg Dynasty. He did had many successes at the eastern front and the African front. He couldn't defeat Western armies but he had great successes against Eastern and African armies

So not a bad general but also not a good general

[Erwin Rommel]

Hmm I cant wait for someone to propose that some [Insert name of random Ottoman leading figure] vs [insert name of random Chinese Empire figure, preferbably Ming.]

That would be awesome!

[HansDuet]

Carl is winning.

Thou what are you doing? I thought subject was Suleiman versus Gustavus in military skill, not Sweden vs Ottomans.

[Carl von Döbeln]

I will get back on topic.
Although i think that the debate is coming to an end, He is just ignoring the facts that i present in my posts.

[Baron Vlad Felix]

In 1609 the Swedish-Finnish army led by Count Jacobus (Jaakko) De la Gardie ("Lazy Jaakko") and Evert (Eetvartti) Horn started their march from Velikiy Novgorod towards Moscow to help Tsar Vasili Shuiski, entered Moscow in 1610.
"The De la Gardie Campaign". A war with Russian rebels (Swedish intervention in the Russian Civil War). The rebels were supported by Poland.
Poland was trying to get King Sigismund’s son Vladislav Vasa elected as new tsar of Russia. Sweden was against a Russian-Polish alliance. Therefore Sweden decided to support tsar Vasilij Sjuiskij in the civil war. A treaty was signed between Sweden and tsar Sjuiskij on February 28, 1609 in Vyborg. As a service in return Sweden was to receive Kexholms län (a province on the border between Sweden and Russia).
On March 12, 1610 the Swedish Field Marshall Jakob De la Gardie marched the streets of Moscow with his army.
In June 1610, De la Gardie were in trouble with his army and was offered a compromise by the Polish army. Sweden was to withdraw in peace, if the Swedish support of tsar Sjuiskij would come to an end. De la Gardie accepted and withdrew from Russia.
Soon after that, tsar Sjuiskij was removed and Vadislav Vasa was elected new tsar of Russia.
Peace treaty on June 23, 1610.

1655 The Beginning of the Swedish Wars (the so called "Deluge"). Charles X (Karol X) takes Warsaw and Krakow. Warsaw was captured and recaptured several times and 80% of its population was killed. Czestochowa took a miraculous resistance and finally Peace was restored in Oliwa in 1660.

[The Noble Lord]

Well, in our first thread we had to agree to disagree . But in this one, there will be no agreement. The clear winner will have to come up.
You guys decide who its gonna be.


CHEERS

[HansDuet]

Numbers count for nothing. You can have 50 000 peasents and only 500 knights will defeat them. Suleiman always knew how to found good moment to strike and break enemy.
Ali G we won debate! Yea! hehe

Sorry but no. hehe

Provide facts, do not just state things.

[saneel]

Carl said, that victories doesnt prove that you are a good general. I dont know what then proves. You must know how to debate. Even if you have more facts that you opponent, you must watch what do you say. And even if he has more friends here on the forum, you should admit that with that sentence he lost his all credibilty about judgement. He is too much proSwedish. And i am sorry for my bad english, i would express myself pretty better if i knew

[Carl von Döbeln]

Carl said, that victories doesnt prove that you are a good general. I dont know what then proves. You must know how to debate. Even if you have more facts that you opponent, you must watch what do you say. And even if he has more friends here on the forum, you should admit that with that sentence he lost his all credibilty about judgement. He is too much proSwedish. And i am sorry for my bad english, i would express myself pretty better if i knew

I said Many victories.

must watch what do you say

And you do that?

, you should admit that with that sentence he lost his all credibilty about judgement. He is too much proSwedish

Just look at your statements:

And the sheer numbers doesnt mean anything in war

O really? Why then they didnt expand their borders? Why only the germans didnt have their own colonies? Why they fell apart on few new countries(prussia,austria,bawaria,...)?

What did Sweden gained in this war(territoraly)? I know that Russia pwned Sweden

You say...what! With this you say that he is great general and sweden great power! Oh my God! They are both noobs for Ottomans hehe

Sweden cannot match with Ottomans in no category.Come on, Ottomans were in war with entire planet and they still managed to have their empire for 400 years!

I think you maybe too much love your country, and are overeacting a little bit.

Speaking about yourself ei?

How did he then defeated his enemies? Just by charges of few times bigger force? You are mistaken dear friend, when Suleiman was a Sultan, Ottomans were advancing in all direction, and Swedish "empire" was fighting at north for snowy woods for fishes.

So in all other countries round a World, you learn in school about Ottoman empire from 15 to 19ct.

I live in EU and we learned about Ottoman empire in school.