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    Default Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    Zionism changed the idea of Jerusalem. Before, the holy places were seen as places to long for, not to be lived in. For 2,000 years Jews stayed away from Jerusalem not because they could not return but because their religion forbade them from returning until the messiah came


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    Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    No one is more surprised than Shlomo Sand that his latest academic work has spent 19 weeks on Israel’s bestseller list – and that success has come to the history professor despite his book challenging Israel’s biggest taboo.

    Dr Sand argues that the idea of a Jewish nation – whose need for a safe haven was originally used to justify the founding of the state of Israel – is a myth invented little more than a century ago.

    An expert on European history at Tel Aviv University, Dr Sand drew on extensive historical and archaeological research to support not only this claim but several more – all equally controversial.

    In addition, he argues that the Jews were never exiled from the Holy Land, that most of today’s Jews have no historical connection to the land called Israel and that the only political solution to the country’s conflict with the Palestinians is to abolish the Jewish state.

    The success of When and How Was the Jewish People Invented? looks likely to be repeated around the world. A French edition, launched last month, is selling so fast that it has already had three print runs.

    Translations are under way into a dozen languages, including Arabic and English. But he predicted a rough ride from the pro-Israel lobby when the book is launched by his English publisher, Verso, in the United States next year.

    In contrast, he said Israelis had been, if not exactly supportive, at least curious about his argument. Tom Segev, one of the country’s leading journalists, has called the book “fascinating and challenging”.

    Surprisingly, Dr Sand said, most of his academic colleagues in Israel have shied away from tackling his arguments. One exception is Israel Bartal, a professor of Jewish history at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Writing in Haaretz, the Israeli daily newspaper, Dr Bartal made little effort to rebut Dr Sand’s claims. He dedicated much of his article instead to defending his profession, suggesting that Israeli historians were not as ignorant about the invented nature of Jewish history as Dr Sand contends.

    The idea for the book came to him many years ago, Dr Sand said, but he waited until recently to start working on it. “I cannot claim to be particularly courageous in publishing the book now,” he said. “I waited until I was a full professor. There is a price to be paid in Israeli academia for expressing views of this sort.”

    Dr Sand’s main argument is that until little more than a century ago, Jews thought of themselves as Jews only because they shared a common religion. At the turn of the 20th century, he said, Zionist Jews challenged this idea and started creating a national history by inventing the idea that Jews existed as a people separate from their religion.

    Equally, the modern Zionist idea of Jews being obligated to return from exile to the Promised Land was entirely alien to Judaism, he added.

    “Zionism changed the idea of Jerusalem. Before, the holy places were seen as places to long for, not to be lived in. For 2,000 years Jews stayed away from Jerusalem not because they could not return but because their religion forbade them from returning until the messiah came.”

    The biggest surprise during his research came when he started looking at the archaeological evidence from the biblical era.

    “I was not raised as a Zionist, but like all other Israelis I took it for granted that the Jews were a people living in Judea and that they were exiled by the Romans in 70AD.

    “But once I started looking at the evidence, I discovered that the kingdoms of David and Solomon were legends.

    “Similarly with the exile. In fact, you can’t explain Jewishness without exile. But when I started to look for history books describing the events of this exile, I couldn’t find any. Not one.

    “That was because the Romans did not exile people. In fact, Jews in Palestine were overwhelming peasants and all the evidence suggests they stayed on their lands.”

    Instead, he believes an alternative theory is more plausible: the exile was a myth promoted by early Christians to recruit Jews to the new faith. “Christians wanted later generations of Jews to believe that their ancestors had been exiled as a punishment from God.”

    So if there was no exile, how is it that so many Jews ended up scattered around the globe before the modern state of Israel began encouraging them to “return”?

    Dr Sand said that, in the centuries immediately preceding and following the Christian era, Judaism was a proselytising religion, desperate for converts. “This is mentioned in the Roman literature of the time.”

    Jews travelled to other regions seeking converts, particularly in Yemen and among the Berber tribes of North Africa. Centuries later, the people of the Khazar kingdom in what is today south Russia, would convert en masse to Judaism, becoming the genesis of the Ashkenazi Jews of central and eastern Europe.

    Dr Sand pointed to the strange state of denial in which most Israelis live, noting that papers offered extensive coverage recently to the discovery of the capital of the Khazar kingdom next to the Caspian Sea.

    Ynet, the website of Israel’s most popular newspaper, Yedioth Ahronoth, headlined the story: “Russian archaeologists find long-lost Jewish capital.” And yet none of the papers, he added, had considered the significance of this find to standard accounts of Jewish history.

    One further question is prompted by Dr Sand’s account, as he himself notes: if most Jews never left the Holy Land, what became of them?

    “It is not taught in Israeli schools but most of the early Zionist leaders, including David Ben Gurion [Israel’s first prime minister], believed that the Palestinians were the descendants of the area’s original Jews. They believed the Jews had later converted to Islam.”

    Dr Sand attributed his colleagues’ reticence to engage with him to an implicit acknowledgement by many that the whole edifice of “Jewish history” taught at Israeli universities is built like a house of cards.

    The problem with the teaching of history in Israel, Dr Sand said, dates to a decision in the 1930s to separate history into two disciplines: general history and Jewish history. Jewish history was assumed to need its own field of study because Jewish experience was considered unique.

    “There’s no Jewish department of politics or sociology at the universities. Only history is taught in this way, and it has allowed specialists in Jewish history to live in a very insular and conservative world where they are not touched by modern developments in historical research.

    “I’ve been criticised in Israel for writing about Jewish history when European history is my specialty. But a book like this needed a historian who is familiar with the standard concepts of historical inquiry used by academia in the rest of the world.”


    source: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=10490

    anyone calling themselves an 'ethnic jew' should really start taking a long hard look at themselves..


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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post




    source: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=10490

    anyone calling themselves an 'ethnic jew' should really start taking a long hard look at themselves..

    Why is that? There's no denying that there are Jewish ethnicities [e.g. Ashkenazi and Sephardi] and that they function as an ethnic group.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    Quote Originally Posted by wilpuri View Post
    Why is that? There's no denying that there are Jewish ethnicities [e.g. Ashkenazi and Sephardi] and that they function as an ethnic group.
    you mean formerly pagan groups who converted to judaism?
    Jews travelled to other regions seeking converts, particularly in Yemen and among the Berber tribes of North Africa. Centuries later, the people of the Khazar kingdom in what is today south Russia, would convert en masse to Judaism, becoming the genesis of the Ashkenazi Jews of central and eastern Europe
    what became of true 'ethinic jews'?
    well
    It is not taught in Israeli schools but most of the early Zionist leaders, including David Ben Gurion [Israel’s first prime minister], believed that the Palestinians were the descendants of the area’s original Jews. They believed the Jews had later converted to Islam.”
    isnt it ironic that the descendants of these jews now call for israel's destruction?

    more proof that YHWH is inbred and mad

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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Instead, he believes an alternative theory is more plausible: the exile was a myth promoted by early Christians to recruit Jews to the new faith. “Christians wanted later generations of Jews to believe that their ancestors had been exiled as a punishment from God.”
    then blame your religion. besides, what are you going to do? to deport all Israelis?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius
    Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    Quote Originally Posted by orko View Post
    then blame your religion. besides, what are you going to do? to deport all Israelis?
    it's a nice idea, but see, they wont go peacefully
    lol

    anyhoo, the israelis in control of israel now arent even ethnic jews
    just converts from amerikkka and germany.
    sounds like very much a colonising power
    oh and btw they are more or less 'ethnically cleansing' the palestineans, or rather, attempting to.

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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    just converts from amerikkka and germany.


    no, for a long time (as in millenia), conversion has been very very rare.
    Member and acting regent of the House of Kazak Borispavlovgrozny
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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    it's a nice idea, but see, they wont go peacefully.
    no, we won't. why should we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    anyhoo, the israelis in control of israel now arent even ethnic jews
    just converts from amerikkka and germany.
    Judaism is not a missionary religion, so sying it is just strange.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sounds like very much a colonising power.
    the problem is that they didn't come to Israel as representetives of a power and then colonised the land. you also might as well say immigration to Britain from Muslim countries is Muslim imperialism

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    oh and btw they are more or less 'ethnically cleansing' the palestineans, or rather, attempting to.
    funny enoguh, the Palestinians are the only people being ethnically cleansed and increasing in numbers much facter then the people who "cleanses" them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius
    Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    you mean formerly pagan groups who converted to judaism?
    If you mean the Khazars, then yes. But I thought they only account for Eastern European Jewry? Just because they call themselves Jews and adopted new customs does not mean they are not an ethnic group.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    Quote Originally Posted by wilpuri View Post
    If you mean the Khazars, then yes. But I thought they only account for Eastern European Jewry? Just because they call themselves Jews and adopted new customs does not mean they are not an ethnic group.
    Sure they were an ethnic group, but not the someone as the Jews from the Levant.

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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    Sure they were an ethnic group, but not the someone as the Jews from the Levant.
    Exactly. That is why I said that there are several Jewish ethnoses.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    LOL

    The idea of a Jewish people is related to the central emphasis of family within Judaism and Jewish culture. This is significantly older than "just a century".

    Nice try but this is codswallop.
    Last edited by Syron; October 09, 2008 at 10:46 AM.
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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    basically
    jews dont need nor do they deserve a homeland
    they should be kicked out of the levant...
    until their messiah comes (if ever)

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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    basically
    jews dont need nor do they deserve a homeland
    they should be kicked out of the levant...
    until their messiah comes (if ever)
    They had every right to emigrate there, not their fault if the natives were racist........



    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    they should be kicked out of the levant...
    You know it is amazing that if this was said about any other group but jews, someone would get permabanned for saying this on here.
    Last edited by Syron; October 09, 2008 at 10:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    Quote Originally Posted by Syron View Post
    They had every right to emigrate there, not their fault if the natives were racist........

    I thought you were a rabid anti-immigration/ preserve our ethnic indigenous culture fellow?

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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    I thought you were a rabid anti-immigration/ preserve our ethnic indigenous culture fellow?
    Hence the (and to be accurate i'm not a "preserve our indigenous cultures" fellow but a "preserve my culture at all costs" fellow.)

    You will find typically that "pro-immigration" people are the same kind of lefties that dislike the state of Israel. When you phrase the existence of Israel as forming out of legitimate immigrant groups their whole ideology collapses. The lefties can't both support immigration and claim that Jews do not have a right to live in the former region of Palestine.
    Last edited by Syron; October 09, 2008 at 11:31 AM.
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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    Zand (not Sand for God's sake) has no idea of what he's talking about. Zand has no expertise in Jewish history of the ancient time, no expertise on Khazarian history, no expertise on Yemenite history and no expertise on Northern African history or any basic expertise in Jewish genetics.

    Zand is an idiot, and as an anti-Zionist he tries to push his agenda in a cloak of so-called factual researches.

    That's exactly his point, a huge portion of Israelis are Eastern European Jews...i.e. the mass converts of the Kazars.
    There is no heck of an evidence, historically or genetically that the Ashkenazi Jews are Khazars in their vast majority.
    Last edited by Aziel; October 09, 2008 at 12:51 PM.
    Sigh...

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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    Quote Originally Posted by Syron View Post
    They had every right to emigrate there, not their fault if the natives were racist........





    You know it is amazing that if this was said about any other group but jews, someone would get permabanned for saying this on here.
    *fills britain with former colonial subjects, awaits hypocritical squawking*

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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    basically
    jews dont need nor do they deserve a homeland
    they should be kicked out of the levant...
    until their messiah comes (if ever)
    Jews do need a homeland (they have been persecuted in virtually every country they stepped foot in since the dawn of nations and were nearly genocided in at least one) and do deserve one (they have an ancient book chronicling how their Kings reigned there and their people lived there for thousands of years.
    Maybe every native of every land should leave...until their messiah comes
    "Know, O Prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis-and the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an Age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars"- Robert E. Howard

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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    It's all irrelevant anyway. Because all men are related. Jews may lay a claim to all maternal ancestors...then we're all Jews.





    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    basically
    jews dont need nor do they deserve a homeland
    Perhaps not but irrelevant now...they are there. What matters is there is no war, occupation, human rights abuse etc. etc.

    they should be kicked out of the levant...
    that would be ethnic cleansing...

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    Default Re: Idea of a Jewish people invented, says historian

    So you will have no problem refuting all his points using one of the 'non-idiot' historians?

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