Pope defends Pius XII from attacks he didn't do enough to save Jews from Holocaust

[Ahlerich]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...,1147895.story

So was this Pope holy or the Anti Christ himself?

[Orko]

I hate the pope. he IS the anti-Christ. beside the fact that he is the last pope before armaggedon.

[Serious Spamurai]

Lol ^

[Kanaric]

What IS a pope supposed to do to save the Jews from the Holocaust? I have never seen examples.

[Каие]

What IS a pope supposed to do to save the Jews from the Holocaust? I have never seen examples.

Not sign an accord [concordat] with Nazis endorsing them? Issuing mandate to followers? etc. etc.

[Ummon]

Not sign an accord [concordat] with Nazis endorsing them? Issuing mandate to followers? etc. etc.

Why spread falsehood?

The Pope signed no accord with the Nazis. He signed an accord with Italy under Fascist rule, putting an end to the damaging rift between church and state. Later he signed similar accords with other nations, which included Nazi Germany. The concordat is with the nation, not the party. The concordat implied rights for the church to perform its activities without persecution.

The poor Pius had no army, and so he tried to play it on moral suasion and secret help to Jews. As infact, he later received official thanks from them.

Link: http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/dalinframe.htm

A Righteous Gentile: Pope Pius XII and the Jews

Rabbi David G. Dalin, a widely-published scholar of American Judaism and the history of Christian-Jewish Relations, is the author or co-author of five books, including Religion and State in the American Jewish Experience, published by the University of Notre Dame Press in 1997 and, most recently, The President of the United States and the Jews. His article, "Pius XII and the Jews," was published in the February 26, 2001 issue of the Weekly Standard, and was reprinted in the August-September issue of Inside the Vatican, published in Rome. Rabbi Dalin is a member of the Editorial Advisory Board of the journal First Things, and a member of the Board of Governors of Sacred Heart University's Center for Christian Jewish understanding. He is now writing a new book, tentatively entitled: Two Popes and the Jews: Pius XII and John Paul II.

John Paul must be turning over in his grave.

As the supreme authority of the Catholic church the Pope has an absolute obligation to denounce immorality and heinous crimes committed against believers and non-believers alike. It should not matter if they are Catholic or even Christian, what should be held above all else is the new covenant. His failure to stand before the vast evil of the Nazi Empire shows at the very least a disgraceful ignorance, and at the very worst a complicit cowardice. I am reminded of a quote: "The worst case against Christianity is Christians." Pius summarizes that sentiment perfectly. The current Pope should have taken more lessons from his predecessor. It's obvious he doesn't have the moral fiber necessary to execute the obligations of his office.

Sad indeed.

Sometimes, weakness is a human fault less terrible than refusal to acknowledge weakness.

Yes, in theory, he should have seeked martyrdom. Yes, in substance, he was not doing what he should have.

I don't know if I would have been able to condemn the whole church to persecution from Nazism, though, in his place.

[lord o kelly]

^^ rep to Ummon
very good link,
got about halfway through, but i have to eat dinner will finish later

READ IT

http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/dalinframe.htm

[Каие]

Why spread falsehood?

The Pope signed no accord with the Nazis. He signed an accord with Italy under Fascist rule, putting an end to the damaging rift between church and state. Later he signed similar accords with other nations, which included Nazi Germany. The concordat is with the nation, not the party. The concordat implied rights for the church to perform its activities without persecution.

The poor Pius had no army, and so he tried to play it on moral suasion and secret help to Jews. As infact, he later received official thanks from them.

The Reichskonkordat was a fairly important step in international 'acceptance' of Hitler...

Most historians consider the Reichskonkordat an important step toward the international acceptance of Adolf Hitler's Nazi regime.[4] Guenter Lewy, political scientist and author of The Catholic Church and Nazi Germany, wrote:
"There is general agreement that the Concordat increased substantially the prestige of Hitler's regime around the world. As Cardinal Faulhaber put it in a sermon delivered in 1937: "At a time when the heads of the major nations in the world faced the new Germany with cool reserve and considerable suspicion, the Catholic Church, the greatest moral power on earth, through the Concordat expressed its confidence in the new German government. This was a deed of immeasurable significance for the reputation of the new government abroad."

to me it doesn't seem logical that on the one hand he was against anti-Semitism and on the other hand he signs a 'truce' treaty with the most anti-Semitic government on earth.

Yes granted everyone sucked up to the Nazis...but that's still no reason to dismiss it entirely. The popes signature was basically an endorsement, and no matter how argued a powerful one at that.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

to me it doesn't seem logical that on the one hand he was against anti-Semitism and on the other hand he signs a 'truce' treaty with the most anti-Semitic government on earth.

Pius XI was deeply affected by WW1 strove to do whatever he could to avoid a WW2. He was hardly alone amongst European politicians who - with the benefit of hindsight - clearly gave Hitler too much leeway. Remember that just prior to the Concordat Britain, France, Germany and Italy had just signed the Four-Power Pact.

Yes granted everyone sucked up to the Nazis...but that's still no reason to dismiss it entirely. The popes signature was basically an endorsement, and no matter how argued a powerful one at that.

As the statement by Austrian bishops that I quoted above demonstrates, no-one was under any illusions why the Church signed that Concordat. It was not seen as an endorsement of the Nazis at all.

[Nietzsche]

Link: http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/dalinframe.htm

1. Sometimes, weakness is a human fault less terrible than refusal to acknowledge weakness.

2. Yes, in theory, he should have seeked martyrdom. Yes, in substance, he was not doing what he should have.

3. I don't know if I would have been able to condemn the whole church to persecution from Nazism, though, in his place.

1. I'm not asking for the Pontiff to be perfect. However, I am demanding that he hold fast to his principles. With the visibility of his office it is obligatory that he carry out his responsibilities with dignity and fortitude. The lack of principle in the clergy is the main argument against the church.

2. The main thrust of my argument.

3. Interesting statement. However, it doesn't excuse him. I've stated in another post "The problem with Christianity is Christians." At some point principle must become more important than one's own skin. I'm pretty sure Paul would agree, but I'm not certain.

[Ummon]

1. I'm not asking for the Pontiff to be perfect. However, I am demanding that he hold fast to his principles. With the visibility of his office it is obligatory that he carry out his responsibilities with dignity and fortitude. The lack of principle in the clergy is the main argument against the church.

2. The main thrust of my argument.

3. Interesting statement. However, it doesn't excuse him. I've stated in another post "The problem with Christianity is Christians." At some point principle must become more important than one's own skin. I'm pretty sure Paul would agree, but I'm not certain.

1. Let's not forget that in the previous period of 80 years, the church had been under increasing attack from many segments of society, from masonry to socialism. Pius rightly feared it could be destroyed, and this is a thought all man which is busy in politics as well as faith, will consider differently from someone who has only faith concerns. The problem of the CC is its political nature, surely, but how do you do without it?

2. Weakness here not only in the moral sense. Weakness also in the sense that the Pope had no way to stop the damage without bringing more damage on those he tried to protect and others.

3. That is exactly the point: principle is more important than anyone's skin, but not of those of the rest of your brothers and sisters. When you do a sacrifice, you do it yourself. If someone else has to die, or someone else has to die too, that is an entirely different matter...

[HorseArcher]

What IS a pope supposed to do to save the Jews from the Holocaust? I have never seen examples.

Attack Germany with is 3 gold chevron Varangian guards and Templar knights from the Vatican.

Or you never played Medieval total war?

[Last Roman]

Attack Germany with is 3 gold chevron Varangian guards and Templar knights from the Vatican.

NOW that would be a sight to behold

[Maverick]

This is hilarious... the list of people you could implicate in "not doing enough" to prevent the Holocaust would be ENORMOUS, why should the Pope care about the Jews? Who cared about the Jews?

Honestly... this politically correct revisionist history is getting old, I don't believe that non-Jews care about Jews today, let alone in the '40s.

[Richard]

What IS a pope supposed to do to save the Jews from the Holocaust? I have never seen examples.

Charge in with the Swiss Guard, I imagine. All 100-odd of them. Form ranks of pikemen and stick it to those Nazis, he should have done.

[zznɟ ǝɥʇ]

Crusade?

[Kanaric]

Calling a crusade against Hitler would of been hilarious.

Not sign an accord [concordat] with Nazis endorsing them? Issuing mandate to followers? etc. etc.

And have mussolini depose/killed the pope at hitlers request at the first sign of his supporting them resulting in status quo.

I think people overestimate the popes power in this. If he said anything nobody would of done anything more than likely.

[Каие]

Calling a crusade against Hitler would of been hilarious.

Crusade?

The Soviet Muslims declared a Jihad

And have mussolini depose/killed the pope at hitlers request at the first sign of his supporting them resulting in status quo.

I think people overestimate the popes power in this. If he said anything nobody would of done anything more than likely.

I doubt anyone could get away with killing the pope, definitely not Mussolini. Last tie I checked he ended up hanging upside down from a meat hook.

[Yorkshireman]

I think people overestimate the popes power in this. If he said anything nobody would of done anything more than likely.

Exactly. Joseph Stalin famously stated, when questioned about the power of the Vatican, "The Pope, How many divisions has he got."

[Markas]

Exactly. Joseph Stalin famously stated, when questioned about the power of the Vatican, "The Pope, How many divisions has he got."

If only. WW2 was good and all but elite God squads, attack nuns and Bishop glider-borne infantry would have spiced things up a bit.

There's a C&C game in there somewhere.