Muslims: A question

[Green]

I'm an atheist. Lets assume I'll remain an atheist until death. Why did God create me knowing that I would go to Hell? Is my purpose here only as a temptation to the true believers?

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

In Islam, it's true that we believe God is All-Knowing (He knows the future, too). However, God gave you free will so whether you end up in heaven or hell is purely and entirely up to you. It is something that God had not decided Himself but it was something He knew.

A school of thought came up in Islam when it came into contact with other religions (Orthodox Christianity, Coptic Christianity, Buddhism, etc) in the 8th century AD called Ashari. They believed that man's destiny was pre-planned and he had no power to change his fate. However, that school of thought is now mostly obsolete and I'd say around 95% of Muslims or more believe in Athari (Sunni) or Mutazili teachings, which argue in favor of free will against predestination though the Mutazili school borders on deism.

[Green]

In Islam, it's true that we believe God is All-Knowing (He knows the future, too). However, God gave you free will so whether you end up in heaven or hell is purely and entirely up to you. It is something that God had not decided Himself but it was something He knew.

Let me just quote something from the Qur'an here:

2.6 As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
2.7 Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

It sounds to me like God has decided or knows my fate, and in fact has put a seal upon my understanding of Islam.

A school of thought came up in Islam when it came into contact with other religions (Orthodox Christianity, Coptic Christianity, Buddhism, etc) in the 8th century AD called Ashari. They believed that man's destiny was pre-planned and he had no power to change his fate. However, that school of thought is now mostly obsolete and I'd say around 95% of Muslims or more believe in Athari (Sunni) or Mutazili teachings, which argue in favor of free will against predestination though the Mutazili school borders on deism.

I think you've got it the other way round. Mutazili, in my encounters with Muslims (I'd count a fair number of them as Salafi), is considered a heresy. Most Sunnis as far as I know subscribe to Ashari or Maturidi or Al-Tahawi schools of thinking.

well yes God knows your decisions, but that doesn't mean he chose them for you. It were your choices that led you to become whatever you are.

He still knows my ultimate destination. So why create me? What purpose do I serve if he knows that I will fail him?

[AngryTitusPullo]

He still knows my ultimate destination. So why create me? What purpose do I serve if he knows that I will fail him?

He sure knows your ultimate destination, but the more important question is do you know yourself what's your ultimate destination ?

That is what I believe our purpose here, to decide and choose our destination.

[Green]

He sure knows your ultimate destination, but the more important question is do you know yourself what's your ultimate destination ?

That is what I believe our purpose here, to decide and choose our destination.

I don't really want to get into a predestination debate.

Lets assume that I will choose to be an atheist for my entire life. If Islam is correct, my ultimate destination is an eternal and fiery Hell. So, why did God create me knowing this?

[MehemtAli_Pasha]

I don't really want to get into a predestination debate.

Lets assume that I will choose to be an atheist for my entire life. If Islam is correct, my ultimate destination is an eternal and fiery Hell. So, why did God create me knowing this?

i think because God wants to prove to Satan (according to Islam) that his people who he created will follow/worship him. It's true that God knows the future, but Satan doesn't. So we are here to prove God right. that's wut i think..i might be wrong.

[AngryTitusPullo]

Lets assume that I will choose to be an atheist for my entire life. If Islam is correct, my ultimate destination is an eternal and fiery Hell. So, why did God create me knowing this?

An empty hell will be such a bore.. with all those fires and tortures..

We, you can choose to be atheist, and you can choose not to be one.

That is why you're created.

[Alkarin]

In Islam, it's true that we believe God is All-Knowing (He knows the future, too). However, God gave you free will so whether you end up in heaven or hell is purely and entirely up to you. It is something that God had not decided Himself but it was something He knew.

A school of thought came up in Islam when it came into contact with other religions (Orthodox Christianity, Coptic Christianity, Buddhism, etc) in the 8th century AD called Ashari. They believed that man's destiny was pre-planned and he had no power to change his fate. However, that school of thought is now mostly obsolete and I'd say around 95% of Muslims or more believe in Athari (Sunni) or Mutazili teachings, which argue in favor of free will against predestination though the Mutazili school borders on deism.

now say someone became an atheist just for the sake of doing things good for the sake of being good, and is willing to go to hell for it. would they still be considered a sinner and blasphemous enough to go to hell for not praising Allah or Muhammad? or would god being the knowledgeable being respect their intergraty and let them join him in heaven for doing the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing with no benefits from it?

[AngryTitusPullo]

now say someone became an atheist just for the sake of doing things good for the sake of being good, and is willing to go to hell for it. would they still be considered a sinner and blasphemous enough to go to hell for not praising Allah or Muhammad? or would god being the knowledgeable being respect their intergraty and let them join him in heaven for doing the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing with no benefits from it?

An illegal immigrant, no matter how good their conduct in their host country might still be eligible for punishment as they enjoying the benefit of living in that country without having to pay the tax or taking arms to defend the country like the citizen.

[saneel]

In Islam, it's true that we believe God is All-Knowing (He knows the future, too). However, God gave you free will so whether you end up in heaven or hell is purely and entirely up to you. It is something that God had not decided Himself but it was something He knew.

A school of thought came up in Islam when it came into contact with other religions (Orthodox Christianity, Coptic Christianity, Buddhism, etc) in the 8th century AD called Ashari. They believed that man's destiny was pre-planned and he had no power to change his fate. However, that school of thought is now mostly obsolete and I'd say around 95% of Muslims or more believe in Athari (Sunni) or Mutazili teachings, which argue in favor of free will against predestination though the Mutazili school borders on deism.

Sadaka(giving your money to those who need it) and Dove(praying certain surah) can change your fate.

[Rich86]

(He knows the future, too). However, God gave you free will so whether you end up in heaven or hell is purely and entirely up to you.

Isn't that a huge contradiction?

If God knows the future then the future is pre-determined - ergo; no free will?

I've never understood how you can argue the following:

* God knows everything - everything that ever was, is and will be
* God created everyone - he is responsible for 'building you'

If God made you, and knows everything then logically he should know how your life will pan out - after all he made you, and he made everyone that will come into contact with you and he knows everything - so he already knows what is going to happen to you in the future.

As God gives you certain attributes he must know how these attributes, and how the combination of these attributes would cause you to make certain choices in your life.

So surely God knew Green would turn out an atheist? Surely God knows if Green will remain an atheist or not? Surely it's impossible for Green to 'suprise' God and do something God doesn't already know else God doesn't know all?

[Robertus Coolicus]

If the weather man knows that it's going to rain then does that mean he controls the weather?

If a doctor knows that a baby from an ultrasound is going to be a boy does that mean the doc chose the gender?

If a professor or teacher knows the outcome of an experiment then does that mean they forced the experiment to happen?

One can know something in the future but they don't make it happen.

[Roman_Wolf]

So surely God knew Green would turn out an atheist? Surely God knows if Green will remain an atheist or not? Surely it's impossible for Green to 'suprise' God and do something God doesn't already know else God doesn't know all?

that's a wierd way of putting it. So if green decided to adopt a religion or something, it wouldn't be a surprize for God as God already knew that.

And yes its a matter of free choice. You are born and have the right to do whatever you want. God does not control your decisions, and its the path you take that decides your destiny.

[Rich86]

If the weather man knows that it's going to rain then does that mean he controls the weather?

Bad example.

The weatherman does not know the weather he predicts it. If the weatherman created the weather, had ultimate knowledge and power then yes he would control the weather.

If a doctor knows that a baby from an ultrasound is going to be a boy does that mean the doc chose the gender?

Another awful example.

God in this case created the baby so yes he chooses the gender. Fairly obvious.

If a professor or teacher knows the outcome of an experiment then does that mean they forced the experiment to happen?

Another bad example.

A professor or teacher predicts the outcome - they do not know it for a fact until it has happened. Again you are comparing a supposedly all knowing, all powerful being to a human being - poor analogy.

One can know something in the future but they don't make it happen.

If they created everything and whilst they did this 'creation' they also knew everything then how wouldn't they?

yes its a matter of free choice.

How is it if God created you? How does free choice come into it? It seems to me Green has no more free choice than that old computer program with the turtle - you put in the numbers and off it goes drawing a pretty picture for you.

You are born and have the right to do whatever you want.

Yes but what you will 'want' to do God must surely already know.

God does not control your decisions

If God created you and knows you intimately he already knows what you decisions will be yes?

and its the path you take that decides your destiny.

But if God created you he already knows your path - he's effectively picked your path for you during your creation.

[Roman_Wolf]

If God created you and knows you intimately he already knows what you decisions will be yes?

well yes God knows your decisions, but that doesn't mean he chose them for you. It were your choices that led you to become whatever you are.

But if God created you he already knows your path - he's effectively picked your path for you during your creation.

again no. God never made any decisions for you.

btw just wondering, what do christians and jews believe in regarding this topic?

[Orko]

well yes God knows your decisions, but that doesn't mean he chose them for you. It were your choices that led you to become whatever you are.

But he knows what you will do, and wether your decisions will lead you to eternal life or pergatory. so why creating you if he know that you(hypotheticall) go to hell?

btw just wondering, what do christians and jews believe in regarding this topic?

there are different points of view for every person. may religious Jewish friend for example, says that there are many 'time lines', and in one you go to heaven, and in another one to hell(that is just an example).

[AngryTitusPullo]

I've never understood how you can argue the following:

* God knows everything - everything that ever was, is and will be
* God created everyone - he is responsible for 'building you'

Have you played RPG games or read books (quite famous during the 80's) with multiple endings ? How you choose to play, your decision determines how the ending should be ?

It is something like that, at least from what I understand.

You cannot change the past, but you, although you not know, can determine your future.

[Ummon]

The objection Rich makes is valid, because he specifies God built you.

From a non-muslim point of view: humans pick between the possibilities of their life, which are all known to God.

In a gnostic perspective God knows what you will pick, in the sense that you pick them all. The "yous" which pick the right ones, have learned. The others, get an additional turn of learning, either through purgatory, or for less orthodox accounts, reincarnation.

Platonism, you see.

[Ummon]

God knew what your decisions would have been when He created you, allegedly. Thus how He created you is the only causal factor of your choices.

The only possible tentative meaning we can see in this, is a process of gradual purification of evil.

[Rich86]

well yes God knows your decisions, but that doesn't mean he chose them for you.

I don't think you are understanding me.

God created everything about you including your mind. He knew as he created you surely what decisions you would take.

Let me put it like this:

God created you - he picked out every single attribute you would have - he decided everything from your hair colour right down to the size of your little toe.

God knows everything - God knows all the decisions you will ever be faced with. God also knows everything that will ever happen to you.

Given these two factors God therefore must know how these things that happen to you will shape you as a person, and given his knowledge of this, and of you - he must know already which choices you will make in life. Therefore he knows already if Green will remain an atheist for life or not.

Effectively, Green is an actor, reading his part of the script waiting for his part to exit stage left.

again no. God never made any decisions for you.

See above.