Righteous kill

[mongrel]

The Met still think it is reasonable to excuse incompetence, even if their cock ups result in the death of a perfectly innocent chap. But if they try to wriggle out of responsibility for the death of Jean de Menezes, they could make a better effort I think. After what I have heard, all I can say is let's set Boris on them.

Ms Cressida Dick, who was supposed to be in charge, listed a series of "unfortunate" coincidences as she recently gave evidence to the inquest into the shooting of the innocent Brazilian electrician

* the fact that he lived in the same block of flats as failed 21 July suicide bomber Hussain Osman.

So did several others, lets gun them down too.

* the fact that he looked "very like" Osman;

He was male, er.. thats it.

Menezes, white Brazilian



Osman, black Ethiopian



The Met has minimum vision requirements I believe.

*the fact that the first surveillance officer was "indisposed" and only got a short glance at him;

The other surveillance team sat on the bus with him. They had ample time to confirm who he was or assess whether he was carrying any suspicious kit ( he wasn't).

* Mr de Menezes's innocent behaviour in getting off and then back on a bus;
Haven't we all done that? It's hardly a capital offence

* and the fact that he entered the Tube station used by three of the 21 July bombers the previous day.

I'd wager tens of thousands of people use Stockwell Tube every day. Did the Met propose to gun them all down?

Asked what went wrong, she told the inquest: "One thing that clearly went wrong was that we as a nation did not manage to prevent those attacks on July 7 or indeed Hussain Osman and others' attacks on the 21st.

True, very true, but this had nothing to do with this botched operation. Answer the damned question I say.

"Mr de Menezes was the victim of some terrible and extraordinary circumstances the day afterwards".

No, he was killed for no obvious reason because of a botched police operation.

I need not comment on the despicable smears that followed once the Met discovered they killed the wrong man.

One must praise the competence and bravery of West Midlands police, who shortly afterwards captured a real terrorist, Yassin Omar by tazer. Bizarrely Sir Ian Blair, the Met Commissioner criticised them, despite the obvious gains to be had from interrogating him.

Thanks to Rome for this summary below.

Death of Jean Charles de Menezes
Step by Step.

http://inquest.justice4jean.org/

http://www.justice4jean.org/

[Heinz Guderian]

I'm glad Blair is going. How he survived his job after that is amazing. The guy who shot Menezes (several times in the head) actually got a promotion shortly after. Why someone would disparage the capture of a terrorist suspect through non-lethal means is beyond me. He'll probably get a fat pension and join the board of a top 100 company.

[saneel]

I'm glad Blair is going. How he survived his job after that is amazing. The guy who shot Menezes (several times in the head) actually got a promotion shortly after. Why someone would disparage the capture of a terrorist suspect through non-lethal means is beyond me. He'll probably get a fat pension and join the board of a top 100 company.

Yes Heinzy, capitalism and democracy are very cruel. I think if only 1/4 of things that happen in Europe and USA could reach Africa, I think that migration would stop for 90% .

[mongrel]

Precisely HG. I presume Blair was hopping mad because West Midlands Police demonstrated that proper police intelligence ( the craft and IQ) together with good planning and the guts we know the British bobby produces, day in day out, gets results. I do wonder if the Met was under pressure to get a quick result regardless of cost.

[Heinz Guderian]

Precisely HG. I presume Blair was hopping mad because West Midlands Police demonstrated that proper police intelligence ( the craft and IQ) together with good planning and the guts, we know the British bobby produces day in day out, gets results. I do wonder if the Met was under pressure to get a quick result regardless of cost.

It was right after July 7th. But when the the most professional police service in the world screw up like this you have to wonder what the hell is going on upstairs. The worst part is how they tried to cover their arses afterwards. It was mind-numblingly pathetic. (Ian) Blair was supported and protected from up on high. Thats what makes it even more depressing.

[William the Bastard]

It was right after July 7th.

Not to mention the failed attempt on the 21st a day before Menezes was shot.

Ian Blair should have been booted a long time ago. This I can agree on. I am still a little skeptical over blaming the police officers as much as some do. It was the call from the higher echelons that called in the strike and to all intents and purposes they believed it to be the right decision. Hindsight proves it to be the wrong one but I can't believe the MET could have acted any differently with the information given.

Human error killed a single man where had there been armed officers taking out 4 individuals 2 weeks earlier would have saved 52. The order of events should always be remembered as it shows just how nervous and fragile the whole system had become. None of us were/are safe. It would be ludicrous to think that we aren't all safe from the police as by taking that route would be tantamount to saying that the MET purposely mistook Menezes for shites and giggles. Now the worst thing is that if an officer is told to take a shot he will probably hesitate. We are all now in a lose lose situation.

What killed Menezes was the bureaucracy of the modern police force whereby people who are in charge are no where near the situation. They make a bad call and it hits the fan. IMO it was a feck up and a damn shame but still doesn't rank with what happened on 7/7.

[mongrel]

Not to mention the failed attempt on the 21st a day before Menezes was shot.

Ian Blair should have been booted a long time ago. This I can agree on. I am still a little skeptical over blaming the police officers as much as some do. It was the call from the higher echelons that called in the strike and to all intents and purposes they believed it to be the right decision. Hindsight proves it to be the wrong one but I can't believe the MET could have acted any differently with the information given.

Human error killed a single man where had there been armed officers taking out 4 individuals 2 weeks earlier would have saved 52. The order of events should always be remembered as it shows just how nervous and fragile the whole system had become. None of us were/are safe. It would be ludicrous to think that we aren't all safe from the police as by taking that route would be tantamount to saying that the MET purposely mistook Menezes for shites and giggles. Now the worst thing is that if an officer is told to take a shot he will probably hesitate. We are all now in a lose lose situation.

What killed Menezes was the bureaucracy of the modern police force whereby people who are in charge are no where near the situation. They make a bad call and it hits the fan. IMO it was a feck up and a damn shame but still doesn't rank with what happened on 7/7.

I certainly believe that ultimately the failure of command and communications was to blame. But I also think the man/men on the trigger, so to speak also have to share the responsibility, hard as it may seem. The man had no bomb and wore light clothing. He could hardly be described as Ethiopian. It reminds me of Reading's goal against Watford. a couple of weeks ago. The ball missed the left post by a couple of yards, both teams got into a position for a goal kick. The linesman, unsighted thought it was a goal and the referee despite the evidence of his own eyes and the protestations of both teams awarded a goal. The men on the ground failed to use initiative and examine the situation they were in, instead they relied on a chain of command that was quite frankly, blind. There were no circumstances that would have indicated that Menezes was their man, they had enough time to bring him in if they had doubts. The point of operation Kratos is to take out a suicide bombers quickly as a last resort. Menezes had no kit and was allowed to travel by bus for a considerable length of time. Command got it wrong, the firearms team did not have the presence of mind to confirm or question their orders in the light of events. If this was the Army a court martial and a stiff sentence would follow, if Northern Ireland is a guide.

The West Midlands police did act differently and got a result.

[William the Bastard]

It really depends on how much leeway the armed response teams actually have. Are they just tools who automatically obey their orders or are/were they given any chance to use caution and their own initiative? Not being a police officer myself I couldn't possibly answer but I would have thought that after 7/7 the higher officials would have taken much more of the reins as top try to stop it happening again. Instead something not as drastic but certainly as tragic happened.

As I said I am not a policeman and all we really have is the evidence supplied and not really much background on how the police organised themselves after 7/7.

Oh and not to argue for the MET (who I agree made a fook up of the whole thing) but surly it's possible to make an explosive small enough to fit in a bottle? Wasn't that what the airplane plot was about? Yeah the 7/7 and 21/7 bombers had backpacks but I would guess that just because he wasn't wearing the equivalent of a suicide vest doesn't mean he couldn't have been carrying a bottle sized explosive?

[Exarch]

stupid ing idiots
that cop should be dragged through the streets at the end of a truck

[Burnum]

stupid ing idiots
that cop should be dragged through the streets at the end of a truck

Do you think Lynching is a appropriate response?

[Elrond]

Despite the fact that he was innocent he still ran away from armed police into a tube station and then onto a train after 7/7. The police didn't have much of a choice - if he had been a terrorist (which his actions indicated he was) then he could have killed dozens of people.

I know its callous but it was only one death - which was done in the belief that they were saving lives - if it were in some were like Russia then he would be on the missing persons list with the government insisting it never kills people.

[Exarch]

Do you think Lynching is a appropriate response?

no, i was venting
i do think however that the cop should pay restitution to the poor man's family for a period of say, 20 years.

[Dr. Croccer]

What happened to Wergeld?

[Garrigan]

Elrond. What you stated is what is so disgusting about this case. That was a lie put out by the Met. To try and stop themselves shouldering all the blame. They lied and claimed they had ordered a man wearing a rucksack to stop, who had then ran into a tube station, and onto a train. That is despicable, not only did they make several mistakes which resulted in the death of an innocent, they then tried to cover it up. They also (iirc) claimed that he had heroin and cocaine in his bloodstream, in an attempt to discredit him. But seeing as he was given no warning, this didnt make any bloody difference. He couldve been high as a kite, and it wouldnt of made a difference. Thats the worst part for me, that they refused to accept their mistake. I would instantly fire whomever came up with, and allowed that to happen. Its truly disgusting.

I think there was an officer at the door to the tube station. He was given orders to arrest De Menezes, then to let him be, several times. Eventually he was told to leave him alone, so Menezes was allowed to enter the station. Then the officer was told to stop him. After he'd been told to allow him in. This is total incompotence of command chain, the officers on the ground couldnt have a had a clue what was going on. The fact that the officer at the station let the man a few minutes before he'd been told was a potential terrorist into the station, shows that the officers were not supposed to use their own brains. They were, as you said, simply tools. To not let the officers use their own common sense is idiotic, they will always have a better picture of what is going on at the ground then their superiors.

What scares me is that a man that looked nothing like the man he was thought to be, was followed to the station from his flat (giving the officers on the ground plenty of time to identify him, or to say he wasnt the correct target) and was then allowed onto the train. The firearms officers then ran onto the train, pushed him back into his seat as he tried to get up, and shot him dead. Nowhere in that chain of events was there anything de Menezes couldve done to say himself. Nothing.

[mongrel]

Elrond. What you stated is what is so disgusting about this case. That was a lie put out by the Met. To try and stop themselves shouldering all the blame. They lied and claimed they had ordered a man wearing a rucksack to stop, who had then ran into a tube station, and onto a train. That is despicable, not only did they make several mistakes which resulted in the death of an innocent, they then tried to cover it up. They also (iirc) claimed that he had heroin and cocaine in his bloodstream, in an attempt to discredit him. But seeing as he was given no warning, this didnt make any bloody difference. He couldve been high as a kite, and it wouldnt of made a difference. Thats the worst part for me, that they refused to accept their mistake. I would instantly fire whomever came up with, and allowed that to happen. Its truly disgusting.

I think there was an officer at the door to the tube station. He was given orders to arrest De Menezes, then to let him be, several times. Eventually he was told to leave him alone, so Menezes was allowed to enter the station. Then the officer was told to stop him. After he'd been told to allow him in. This is total incompotence of command chain, the officers on the ground couldnt have a had a clue what was going on. The fact that the officer at the station let the man a few minutes before he'd been told was a potential terrorist into the station, shows that the officers were not supposed to use their own brains. They were, as you said, simply tools. To not let the officers use their own common sense is idiotic, they will always have a better picture of what is going on at the ground then their superiors.

What scares me is that a man that looked nothing like the man he was thought to be, was followed to the station from his flat (giving the officers on the ground plenty of time to identify him, or to say he wasnt the correct target) and was then allowed onto the train. The firearms officers then ran onto the train, pushed him back into his seat as he tried to get up, and shot him dead. Nowhere in that chain of events was there anything de Menezes couldve done to say himself. Nothing.

This is about the best summary of the case I have seen anywhere. Thank you for giving this serious subject the respect it deserves. +rep.

Sam and Kasey, it looks as if we have a death in custody thread going on. How accountable are the Police in the States?

[Samuel Adams]

Sam and Kasey, it looks as if we have a death in custody thread going on. How accountable are the Police in the States?

They are mere tools of the pre-disposed tyrants' will. The local police have been federalized to Para-military status, and answer to none save their own. While I am not one to criticize the use of deadly force at the hands of a well trained officer of the people's police forces, with the intent to save from bodily harm (and hence preserve the rights of human life), they must answer not to their own but to their employers- the common man.

Here the Police are able to dispose a situation and then return to their hole and safehaven, and a panel of their peers negates the situation and throws to the people the scraps of liberty they have left. To answer plainly, they are accountable to no one.

[Boer]

How accountable are the Police in the States?

Where I live, about 5 years back we were having a lot of problems with questionable police actions. 2 off duty cops working security at a strip club put several clips worth of bullets into the rear window of a truck. There were also other minor incidents. What really set things off was when the police killed a man during a drug raid where they targeted the wrong house (correct house number, wrong street). The entered the house by climbing up a latter to a second story window without announcing themselves. The lead officer shot and killed a man who was asleep in a chair because the officer mistook a can of beer for a gun. The DA refused to fire anyone or to bring charges to a grand jury for any of these mistakes, so we held a special election and voted him out. To be honest I was surprised everything was settled legally without riots, especially because all of the main incidents involved white cops and black suspects. So, there is some accountability, but usually not until after a major up or two.

[Heinz Guderian]

Where I live, about 5 years back we were having a lot of problems with questionable police actions. 2 off duty cops working security at a strip club put several clips worth of bullets into the rear window of a truck. There were also other minor incidents. What really set things off was when the police killed a man during a drug raid where they targeted the wrong house (correct house number, wrong street). The entered the house by climbing up a latter to a second story window without announcing themselves. The lead officer shot and killed a man who was asleep in a chair because the officer mistook a can of beer for a gun. The DA refused to fire anyone or to bring charges to a grand jury for any of these mistakes, so we held a special election and voted him out. To be honest I was surprised everything was settled legally without riots, especially because all of the main incidents involved white cops and black suspects. So, there is some accountability, but usually not until after a major up or two.

That really sucks man. Glad you voted the DA out. Its better to solve these problems using peacful methods, however fun a good riot can be.

[mongrel]

Where I live, about 5 years back we were having a lot of problems with questionable police actions. 2 off duty cops working security at a strip club put several clips worth of bullets into the rear window of a truck. There were also other minor incidents. What really set things off was when the police killed a man during a drug raid where they targeted the wrong house (correct house number, wrong street). The entered the house by climbing up a latter to a second story window without announcing themselves. The lead officer shot and killed a man who was asleep in a chair because the officer mistook a can of beer for a gun. The DA refused to fire anyone or to bring charges to a grand jury for any of these mistakes, so we held a special election and voted him out. To be honest I was surprised everything was settled legally without riots, especially because all of the main incidents involved white cops and black suspects. So, there is some accountability, but usually not until after a major up or two.

Interested to hear that you could hold the DA accountable for this. The former Mayor of London and the Home Office, likewise defended the then Met commissioner, who was seen as very much a creature of the New Labour government. Interestingly enough he did not survive long once we voted in a new Mayor. Odd thing is the Mayor has no powers to dismiss him, but with the Home Minister having been voted in by 18,000 votes as opposed to a Mayor representing millions it seems that Londoners ahve at last gained control of their city.

[Samuel Adams]

Yet people insist that civilized nations are not on the verge of totalitarian police state...

I would like to bring up the murder of Sgt. Derek J. Hale, USMC, ret, in Delaware, under different, but scarily similar at the same time, circumstance.

An unmarked Police manned van pulled up to the house where Ret. Sgt. Hale was helping a deployed friend's wife move in to their new home.

The Delaware Stateys got out of the van and before Hale could respond tazered him numerous times, resulting in convulsions of the body. His hands were in his hoody, and he could not get them out due to the tazers. They demanded he show his hands, ignoring his screams that he could not move them due to the electric shocks. Then, in front of his friend's wife and small child, he was butchered in cold blood by government paid officers who's sole duty is to protect, not tyrannize, citizens. A painting contractor ran over and told the police it was excessive, and the officer told him, "I'll show you excessive force."

Yes, the police are here to protect and defend...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w10.html

http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com...e-case-of.html
(Note that Scott Horton is not any relation to me, however Mr. Grigg is a long time friend of my father's)

http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com...n-streets.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Hale