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  1. #1

    Default Sacrifices for the "Greater Good"

    This is a very old yet always popular theme in many hollywood movies. Here you have your only son - there is a bus full of people. You cannot save both. What are you going to do? Do you remember the famous scenes? The hero throwing himself in front of the children, saving them but dying in the process?
    There is an unlimited number of such stories, all with similar content.
    All of them are closely linked to the questions: are two lives worth more than one? Is it ethical, is it morally just to let a human die, in order to save others?
    Do we have the right to sacrifice people for a "greater good"?
    To answer this question, we first have to define what a "sacrifice for a greater good" even is.

    Sacrificing things for the so-called greater good starts with very small things, such as giving up little personal liberties and goes up to sacrificing even human lives.
    When you give something up in order to archieve something else which you find to be of bigger importance, that is not necessarily bad and doesn't have to be unethical at all. Often, people put their own interests away, in order to make their children happy, to keep "peace at home" and to avoid constant conflicts and fighting. Such things are not much more than compromises and are a base for our civilization and society.
    Other examples would be young people spending a "social year" in hospitals, kindergartens, schools etc or people in general joining social organizations in order to help others. They "sacrifice" their own interests for what they feel to be a greater good. Same when you decide to buy more expensive products that are for example from local farmers, in order to support them.
    All of these things are based on decisions you make for yourself, decisions that mainly affect nobody but you. Those are ethically and morally pretty clear cut, everyone is free to do what he believes is right, as long as he doesn't hurt others.
    But after that it becomes complicated - what about taking away others' liberties, what about sacrificing their ideals, their wishes, their rights or even their lives for a "greater good"?
    It all begins on a small scale. If parents really want their child to become lawyer, think he is fit for the job and don't allow him to become say a painter, threaten to deinherit him, just because they think it is eventually "better" for him to be a lawyer, is that morally correct? Do those parents have the right to limit their son's rights? Are they doing the right thing?
    Difficult questions undoubtedly. But there are much more serious issues.
    The majority of the people are pretty dumb. This bold and very generalizing statement is repeated by many people, and while the politicians never openly say it, they surely secretly think so.
    If the majority is pretty dumb and uneducated - shouldn't we, the nice and good government tell them what to do? Should we limit their rights because of what we think is "better" for them?
    One example would be gun laws. In several European countries, guns are banned for normal people. Why? Because the government thinks guns are too dangerous for them and would eventually cause more harm than good.
    The government decided that sacrificing the people's rights for a greater good was correct. Another big, always present example would be the social state. The government is under the impression that taking one man's money is just as it serves the "greater good" of feeding the poor, supporting the whole society. But there is even more to the topic than just financial issues. Keyword: terrorism. Should our freedom be limited in order to gain more safety for everyone and thus helping the society? Or does limiting our freedom cause just the opposite?
    Should we kill 1 innocent man if we can save the deaths of 10 others by that? Should our government shoot down terrorist planes, even if hundreds of innocents are in it, if we are sure that the plane will otherwise crush into a big city, causing thousands of deaths?
    Is one man worth less than two? Who are we to play god and put lives on the scales?
    These very major issues and questions are without a doubt very up-to-date.

    I personally think that sometimes sacrifices are inevitable. Times can come, when we have no choice but to give up one thing for another. We have to weigh up the importance of keeping our rights in order to live in a free world, in order to keep our liberties, against the consequences of allowing what we consider "bad". A good example for that would be socialism. Taking one man's hard earned money, stripping it off him and giving it to others is surely a violation of his rights and isn't totally morally just. However, the consequences of not supporting the poor, of not feeding the hungry, of not giving a home to the homeless are much bigger. In the end I believe the effects of not helping the helpless would have a much worse effect on society than the small loss of rights. But obviously, there have to be limits. In our society's interest, a small-average level of socialism is good, whereas a full socialist state could prove fatal.
    However, not everything is so clear cut. I am undecided about limiting our liberties in face of the growing threat of terrorism. Is the possible saving of a few lives worth so much money, effort and especially lifetime of billions of people? But who am I to say it isn't! And should we really shoot terrorist planes with innocents in them? I honestly cannot tell.

    Facing many problems nowadays, sacrificing our rights and liberties might seem like an easy and quik solution to lots of our trouble. However, sacrificing everything can prove just as fatal as doing nothing. If we give up everything, if we choose to bow down to the "greater good" at all costs, we open the gates to an immorale, unjust and unstable society.
    We certainly aren't good judges on human lives, it would be disastrous to to let us make the decisions whether this human life is worth more than that one.
    Drawing the line would be impossible and the end of our society, at least as we know it, would be near.

    To sum it up, acting like a maniac and defending every single right to the last drop of blood even if the consequences is not only irrational, but also dangerous. Of course, the opposite is just as bad.
    It is clear that a compromise must be found. However, there is no recipe for what is "right" or "wrong", thus the burden lies on us to find good solutions to the problems of our time.
    Curious Curialist curing the Curia of all things Curial.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Sacrifices for the "Greater Good"

    GAH! Post...too...long...

    But yeah, the whole Idea of there cant be good unless others suffer is an age old one that still rings true to this day...
    If yer going to leave some rep be sure to leave your name so I can return the favor
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Sacrifices for the "Greater Good"

    Quote Originally Posted by Oceanus View Post
    This is a very old yet always popular theme in many hollywood movies. Here you have your only son - there is a bus full of people. You cannot save both. What are you going to do?
    I do nothing and let the kid die. Because shoving my son in front of the bus would be directly killing him, where as letting the people in the Bus die is just negligence.
    "I have need to be all on fire, for I have mountains of ice about me to melt." -William Lloyd Garrison

    "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end." -Leon Trotsky

  4. #4
    D.B. Cooper's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Sacrifices for the "Greater Good"

    Quote Originally Posted by Arian the Heretic View Post
    I do nothing and let the kid die. Because shoving my son in front of the bus would be directly killing him, where as letting the people in the Bus die is just negligence.
    You say this now like it's an easy choice, but I doubt you would let your "kid" die before you.


  5. #5

    Default Re: Sacrifices for the "Greater Good"

    Hi all,

    It's funny when "Balance" decision, as I like to call them, are mentioned.

    Is one a Deist, Atheist, Theist? THAT, if one believes one's credo, would ultimately dictate the outcome.

    Besides, Relativistic morals and ethics don't work.
    Take a look at society and understand that we are related to one another and then understand that the person you screw over is JUST LIKE YOU.

    A removed relative at that also. Let's talk about that, shall we?

    hellas1

  6. #6

    Default Re: Sacrifices for the "Greater Good"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ar-Pharazôn View Post
    You say this now like it's an easy choice, but I doubt you would let your "kid" die before you.
    But the OP says there is no way I can save both. I thought that meant I couldn't die and let both live. Of course I would jump in front of the Bus.
    "I have need to be all on fire, for I have mountains of ice about me to melt." -William Lloyd Garrison

    "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end." -Leon Trotsky

  7. #7
    The Good's Avatar the Bad and the Ugly
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    Default Re: Sacrifices for the "Greater Good"

    These "sacrifice for the greater good" situations are very difficult to go through, and there will always be consequences for deciding one choice and not the other.


  8. #8

    Default Re: Sacrifices for the "Greater Good"

    So what do you think, how much of our personal freedom, of our liberties should we sacrifice?

    How would you weigh up human lives against each other? Is it worth it to sacrifice 1 human if you can save 2 others that way? Or is the loss of our morale and ethics in the process too big for it to be worthwhile?
    Curious Curialist curing the Curia of all things Curial.

  9. #9
    Axeman's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Sacrifices for the "Greater Good"

    I pick my battles , I fight ones I believe in and try to defend others I care about or who I just feel need to be defended , to me such a thing is merely a variable which cannot be predicted , my emotions are not on a set formula , as for the hypothetical situation you mentioned above I think NOW that I would save the bus full of people being the logical man that I am , but when I am a father I may feel quiet different.

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  10. #10
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Sacrifices for the "Greater Good"

    Yeah...too long, didn't read.

    I think the whole "for the greater good/society" thing is bull-. What has society done for me lately? I would much sooner save my friends, family, and loved ones- the people I actually care about- than save a number of random people.

    Though it would depend on my mood. If I were in a good, buoyant, happy mood, I might reverse that way of thinking and actually make an attempt to save the greater number. "The need of the many outweigh the need of the few" kind of thing...but again, it depends entirely on what sort of mood I am in. If you can't already tell, I'm a kind of a moody, and emotionally-driven person.

  11. #11
    Xavier Dragnesi's Avatar Esse quam videre
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    Default Re: Sacrifices for the "Greater Good"

    I think the Greater Good concept is and interesting one. A lot of the time, it's not necessarily sacrificing yourself in person, but sacrificing smaller things, so that in the end, the result is better. I am more of a history freak than a philosopher, so I shall have to revert to a historical example:

    At the battle of Cannae, Hannibal put his worst troops in the centre of his line, which took the brunt of the blow, and a massive beating from the Romans. But by making this sacrifice of these less strong troops, he was able to utilise his more elite troops on the wings, and his cavalry to greater use. It's just instances like these where these sacrifices conclude in a result better than if the sacrifice hadn't been made. It's a similar situation a lot of the time with Chess.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Sacrifices for the "Greater Good"

    Good example, Xavier. Sometimes you have to risk or even sacrifice things and lives to archieve great goals.

    However, as I've tried to make clear in my opening post, a line has to be drawn. Sometimes sacrifices are necessary - but sometimes they are also foolish. A prime example is our freedom.
    We must at no cost abolish our personal liberty as the consequences would be catastrophic.

    And don't be so lazy guys, reading one page hasn't killed anyone so far
    Curious Curialist curing the Curia of all things Curial.

  13. #13
    Roman_Wolf's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Sacrifices for the "Greater Good"

    I would definately save my own kid. the others .i don't even know them so why would I sacrifce myself or my child for the sake of some strangers.
    Love is the most powerful thing on Earth, unless you have access to weaponry.

  14. #14
    Manco's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Sacrifices for the "Greater Good"

    Me and mine come first. The rest are merely tolerated as being part of the society that makes my life easier, but even that society is not more important than me or mine.

    (mine being wife, children and perhaps some family members and dear friends)
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