Judeo-Christian Values

[Kiljaden]

What are they, and why do you say that they permeate the modern western world's law system when almost all current civilized western governments are either wholly secular (The U.S. for example) or utilize the now moot idea of a state church to neuter the influence of religion in government (Sweden for example).

Most importantly, what the hell do you people actually mean when you say Judeo-Christian values, as if Jewish values and Christian values had anything in common in the first place - and as if Christian or Jewish values had anything in common with our modern systems of law... which they obviously don't.

[Copperknickers II]

Judeo-Christian values is another name for the moral system on which the Western Christians supposedly built their government on, though democracy has more or less destroyed the nedd for them now.

[Nietzsche]

Judeo-Christian values is another name for the moral system on which the Western Christians supposedly built their government on, though democracy has more or less destroyed the nedd for them now.

Oh? How has democracy destroyed the need for J-C morals? Or is your point that democracy has destroyed the need for morals? Or is it that democracy is not based on morality at all? The idea that democracy has somehow supplanted the need for religious morality (or morality based on a tradition which sprang from religious morality) is false. Have you ever wondered why it was western states that first became democratic and (for the most part) the only ones that still are; in addition to those states they had for colonies/influence.

I don't think I need to site real world examples for you. Western Christian governments didn't "supposedly" build their governments on J-C values. They absolutely did.

Rome kb8: Proof has already been offered. Read the thread again. But to really throw a bee in your bonnet, ask yourself why we have to "swear in" to the witness chair.

[Kiljaden]

Western Christians? So, the Papacy and Religious Monarchies of the Dark Ages? Doesn't sound like anything to be touting around in my opinion - because it's those exact things that led to the Christian Crusades and the Inquisition...

[Copperknickers II]

Western Christians? So, the Papacy and Religious Monarchies of the Dark Ages? Doesn't sound like anything to be touting around in my opinion - because it's those exact things that led to the Christian Crusades and the Inquisition...

No, that was purely a power struggle.

[Kiljaden]

Then I don't know what you mean by Western Christian morals that formed bases for any system of government. 'Twas religious power struggle that fueled the building of Christian Empires prior to the U.S. Constitution (simplification and generalization, I know - still pretty accurate though), after which the majority of western governmental reformation generally followed secular form in one way or another, with a few anomolous occurances.

[Djûn]

...and as if Christian or Jewish values had anything in common with our modern systems of law... which they obviously don't.

The basis of much of the Common Law comes from morals upheld in the Bible. There are still fervent debates to these days as to the comprehension of many a ratio decidendi given by many Law Lords of the 20th century.

Two of the Ten Commandments are blindingly obvious to contradict this statement: "You shall not steal", and "you shall not murder." As the United Kingdom has been a Christian state for centuries, and its secularity still debatable today, it would be foolish to claim that Christian morals played no role in its development today!

Given the Common Law is the single most influential legal system in the world, it is not hard to comprehend that its Christian bases are not felt worldwide.

[Burnum]

Given the Common Law is the single most influential legal system in the world, it is not hard to comprehend that its Christian bases are not felt worldwide.

Which is Ironic, because it was based partly on Shariah.

[Djûn]

True within reason, yes, for we could equally say that Sharia morals were based on Judeo-Christian ones!

[Burnum]

True within reason, yes, for we could equally say that Sharia morals were based on Judeo-Christian ones!

Yes, actually. A lot of Shariah law is based on Judaism or Nestorian Christianity.

[Hand of Nergal]

Judaism was the basis for Christianity and Islam, its no coincidene that Jesus, all of the disciples, and all of the early Christians were Jews. (There are still Jews today who believe Yeshua/Jesus was the Messiah, theyre called messianic Jews)
A great deal of the Koran cites Biblical literature and is as far as Im concerned the main inspiration for the text. So the Judean religion is or was at least initially closely with Christianity, anti-semites, over the years have invented a number of different ways of severing the ties and connections with the jews, like changing the sabbath from Saturday (Saturns day) to Sunday.
I would dare not criticize Jewish literature or morality, the ancient Jews were some of the most civilized and forward thinking people in the world in a time when most of the world was still savage and barbaric and their Bible has inspired a wave or controversial and yet noble philosophies (loving ones neighbor is a stupid idea, right? What the hell was Jesus thinking, right?)
Dont forget these contributions, Judeo-Christian values are lofty ideals, it is only unfortunate that a wicked few have rotted the bunch with miseducation, hypocrisy, and outright stupidity. These values are the glue of our laws and are a marvel of the past and a credit to the many martyrs who died for admirable principles.

[Broken Pope]

A cursory glance through Britain's statute books betrays the influence of religious moral orthodoxy. Look at The Abortion Act 1967, the Sexual Offences Act 2003 (and its 1968 predecessor), the Vagrancy (etc.) Act 1838(?) - (which contained most of our legislation proscribing prostitution and sexual exposure until the 2003 Act came into force last year.)

Thats why kiddo.

[Simetrical]

What are they

Judeo-Christian values tend to be characterized by a number of major features that set them apart from various other value systems:

• Sexual contact outside of marriage is viewed as unconditionally sinful. Many cultures openly accepted or encouraged various forms of extramarital sexual activity, such as the Phoenicians' sacred prostitutes, or the Greeks' pederasty. The Israelites did not, and nor did the Christians or Muslims who inherited their teachings.
  
  This is probably the most controversial one at the moment, with modern secularism advocating free sex, so I'm putting it first.
• Belief in a single all-powerful God, who forbids worship of all other gods. Some other cultures were hostile toward other gods, but I'm not aware of any that put such a high priority on stamping out foreign religions as the Bible gives. No culture was monotheistic that I've heard of before the Israelites.
• Emphasis on charity: helping the poor and defenseless. We take this for granted, because it accords with secular ideals like utilitarianism, but it certainly was not ubiquitous at all in the ancient world. Cultures like the Greeks or Romans didn't believe that rich people were under any obligation to help poor people. Some others did, though, like the Sumerians (and Abraham, mind you, was born in Sumeria, according to the Bible).
  
  Related to this is a belief in social equality. The rich and poor are viewed as equal in the eyes of the law. Judges must not be biased in favor of either the rich or the poor, everyone must deal fairly with everyone else, love their neighbors as theirselves, treat strangers equally, etc. This often didn't hold up in practice, of course, but some other cultures didn't even think it was a good idea in theory. (And mind, there were some groups of people who were superior to others, in the Bible: priests and Levites over ordinary Israelites, for instance, and Israelites over non-Israelites. But not rich people over poor people.)

There are probably a number of other points as well, but those come to mind.

and why do you say that they permeate the modern western world's law system when almost all current civilized western governments are either wholly secular (The U.S. for example) or utilize the now moot idea of a state church to neuter the influence of religion in government (Sweden for example).

First of all, the US government cannot be called secular without qualification. It is not secular in the same way as, say, France. Politicians are not only allowed but expected to be openly religious, up to and including official prayer sessions in legislatures. Things like coinage and the Pledge of Allegiance explicitly refer to God. Politicians are allowed to pass religiously-motivated laws, within limits. And so on. How separated church and state are is a somewhat open issue that's undergoing steady revision under various court cases.

That aside, Judeo-Christian morality does have an influence still, probably, even if nominally cast aside. I wouldn't take for granted that we would have such strong beliefs in social equality if not for Judeo-Christian emphasis on charity, for instance. But really, it's impossible to say.

Which is Ironic, because it was based partly on Shariah.

What parts of common law were based on Shariah?

(There are still Jews today who believe Yeshua/Jesus was the Messiah, theyre called messianic Jews)

Or more appropriately, "thinly-veiled Christians". Jews for Jesus mostly don't really practice Judaism, and I don't just mean because they believe in Jesus. Their theology is fundamentally opposed to Jewish theology, like believing in salvation through faith and not deeds. Messianic Judaism might be a little closer, but not much.

Anyone who believes Jesus is the messiah generally buys the whole package, including his followers' belief that Jewish law is invalidated. They might observe a few of the Biblical holidays or something, but almost none do anything more to distinguish themselves from Christians who happen to be ethnically Jewish.

But that's not the subject of this thread.

(loving ones neighbor is a stupid idea, right? What the hell was Jesus thinking, right?)

The Books of Moses (Numbers, IIRC) says "love your neighbor as yourself", not Jesus (or if he did, he was quoting Moses).

[Burnum]

What parts of common law were based on Shariah? Or do you mean Christian law?

Possibly the concept of Juries, Trust laws, Agency laws and Limited partnership. That's all I can think of.

[Simetrical]

Is there any clear evidence for any of those? Athens had juries, for instance, and ancient Rome had limited partnerships, according to a quick glance at Wikipedia. Wikipedia mentions the possible Islamic jury link, but only as a possibility. Besides, is the "lafif" they mention even part of Sharia? Or was it just a legal practice in some Islamic countries?

At any rate, the overwhelming majority of English common law certainly was not based on sharia. It derived from Germanic and Roman practice, mainly, and just stuff people made up over the centuries.

[Icefrisco]

It's just a failed attempt for Republicans in the U.S. to make inroads in Jewish populations. If the Republicans get more Jews to vote for them, then they can do better in Florida, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey. That's all. Judeo-Christian values are made up. It's more Neo-Con propoganda.

[wilpuri]

"Judeo-Christian values" are a myth. When you find someone propagating such a myth, they're usually Jewish/Israeli, neo-conservative, or both.

[Oswald von Wolkenstein]

Not related to anything all but I want to throw everything in the world and the whole known universe in there too.

Look

the Christianity we know is Greco-Judeo

It becomes Greco-Roman-Judeo

and finally becomes Germanic-Greco-Roman-Judeo

and so I think saying Christian-Judeo is totally misleading because

There is no "Christian" without the Judeo element.

Jewishness is one of the elements of Christianity --

if you're going to break Western culture down to the level of Judeo,

then it is,

without a doubt

-- Germanic-Romano-Greco-Judeo.

_________________

[Ummon]

Jesus actually said "Love each other as I have loved you", meaning de facto, be ready to sacrifice yourself for your neighbour.

[Каие]

Modern Western legal systems do not have Christianity as the base of their law, unless you can prove that to me.