Battle documentary on Naseby..

[CrayonVonCaesar]

From the battlefield Britain series:

Battle of Naseby Wiki Link

+ Google Video

Featuring interviews with soldiers (improvising actors) from both sides, re-enactments of the battles and computer generated scenes with bird eye views and blocks to show troop movement.

[Destraex]

yep I have these. That is the best doco I series I have seen for graphics.
Its a bit simple, but still an excellent yarn.
They also did the great battles of the 21st century.... which was not as good.

[AlphaDelta]

Thank you!

Funny you should post this, last night I watched a documentary about Naseby. War walks..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJR-ruBkXC0

Cheers

[Jingles]

Thank you!

Funny you should post this, last night I watched a documentary about Naseby. War walks..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJR-ruBkXC0

Cheers

Hey, I haven't seen war walks for ages! the last one I saw was on Market Garden, and that was years ago.

Thanks for the link!

[Chevalier IX]

Great battles of the 21st century???what great battle happened in the last 8 years????

[Father Jack]

I loved battlefield Britain, Naseby was one of my favourite episodes.

[Point Blank]

I thought AD's mod was more realistic

[AlphaDelta]

Does anyone know why the infantry dropped their pikes and used swords at Naseby? The obvious answer is they wanted to kill, but why specifically at Naseby? Was this a rare action or quite common?

Cheers

[Chevalier IX]

From my understanding the Arming sword carried by the pikemen was their main offensive weapon in most of the battles,with the pike being of limited use on the offensive,for should the enemy get in between they were done for,just as the greek phalanx,they more often than not resorted to their swords when going on the offensive.As has often times been seen the pike was mainly a defensive weapon(not to say it could not register the kill on the offense,but it was rather unwieldy)to be as a moving defensive position for the musketeers,but when the threat of cavalry had been nullified and they broke off it was most oft times the swords that came to bear when the general melee ensued.I could quote my sources if you would like but the majority of writings point to this...perhaps you should add a side sword to the mod??

[AlphaDelta]

The cavalry threat at Naseby was still present when the pikemen dropped their pikes.

Also while, I agree the pike was a defensive weapon, the offensive infantry arm of an ECW army was normally the musketeers. As the war dragged on armies began to field more and more musketeers for the purpose of killing power.

After watching a lot of footage of ECW battle re-enactments, I find it very hard to believe pikemen dropped pikes on a regular basis. From what I've read it was a tactic of pikemen to charge their pike, holding it firm with their left hand and right foot, whilst drawing their sword with their right hand. This is of course impossible to simulate in TW.

perhaps you should add a side sword to the mod??

Giving pikemen in M2TW a sword as a secondary weapon completely destroys the composition of the unit and makes them about as useful as a wet-sponge.

Cheers

[Chevalier IX]

Yes,indeed you are correct,there really is no way to give them swords and still keep them of any use,just one of the many limitations the engine posesI am in agreement with you that I do not often times see the sword used in re-enactments,but it seems that historians have alsightly different take on the issue,but never the less,I prefer the contesting of pike better anyway.

[Destraex]

I would like to know which is accurate, offensive sword or pike.
Please provide your sources..... otherwise I will have to buy more books!!!

If I used common sense, I would say that pikes were dropped when the entire enemy army was on the run...... not during a battle when any real threat still existed.

Also where did you read that the greeks dropped their pikes?

[Chevalier IX]

Itis not so much that they openly dropped their pikes(the greeks)but the fact of the matter is if the enemy got too close in a hard press,or their position was outflanked,the sarissa was rendered useless,being next to impossible to change formation or facing in the midst of the fight with 18 foot pikes,therefore the necessity of the side arm came to be ,at least for the first few ranks to stem the tide of the enemy breaking into their formation.Some of the sources though that have lent creedence to my ideas concerning the Pikemen of the pike and shot era are "Fighting techniques of the Early modern World" and "The Art of War in the Western World" I believe though that even Machiavelli lends a slight mention to it,at least in theory,in his Art of War when he speaks of how useless the pikemen become when facing swordsmen or anyone else that has a smaller more nimble weapon.As said,it is not gospel,but it goes without saying that in many situations the front ranks at the very least ended up lending to their sword in a hard pressed melee.Another point of reference I will direct you to is the 1638 manual directions for musters,which was used throughout our era of the English Civil war,wherin it states that amongst other things a pikemen was requiered to have "A good Sword of Three Feet Long,Cutting and Stiff pointed"whether the sword they were generally issued was considered good is up for debate,but it size and requierement dictates that it would not have been soley intended for munitions work,and the preference to use or not use it in the thick of the fight was likely a matter of choice when it came down to it whether instructed to or not,but the fact remains that if they were requiered it they well must have been trained or at least instructed in its usage in drill preperation for actual combat,likely in the situations previously described,when the Pike was rendered useless through the proximity of the fight(seeing as a flanking maneuve was the prefered way to encounter this formation,I would have to believe that the sword was drawn often when the pike could not be brought to bear)At the end of the day,I agree,many say this was not the case and that the sword was for munition work at best,but since we will never REALLY know what occured in each and every engagement of the era,we must go with theory,and to my knowledge when referencing the battle descriptions left behind by one witness or another,it is never stated that the pikemen did not engage in the general melee with their swords rather than pikes,leaving it to have been assumed by their contemporaries one way or the other when speaking of the fight before them.

"Directions for Muster excerpt taken from the Osprey Book Soldiers of the English Civil war volume 1:Infantry " also therin you will see at least one painting drawn from sources that features a pikeman with sword drawn on the field with his pike nowhere in sight"

I would like to state that I love this mod just fine the way that it is and these claims are in NO WAY intended to take anything away from it,the art theirn or the incredible work that Alpha Delta has done for us and the community as a whole,it is all in the spirit of good conversation

EDIT:alright,whilst referencing some sources I come to find from the standpoint of the re-enactment groups that actually engage in these combats,hence are a bit more inclined to get it right,the tuck,as the sword was called was issued I see in the theory it would be used,but it was a rare occasion when it was,so,all the better that gameplay does not lend itself well to it,for it does not seem to have been used during this war