Chivalry

[The Good]

Do you believe that chivalry is dead in today's world?
Do you believe that it has any place in today's world?
If so, should it be revived?


I do believe that it is still around but perhaps so small so minor that people think it is dead. I believe it should be revived and that it has a place in the world perhaps I have been reading to many Bernard Cornwell novels.

There's a thread on another forum that I frequent discussing chivalry.

What do you think of this? As the original author asked, do you think that chivalry is dead? Do you believe it has any place in our world today, or do you consider it too "old fashioned?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry

Chivalry is a term related to the medieval institution of knighthood. It is usually associated with ideals of knightly virtues, honour and courtly love. Today, the terms chivalry and chivalrous are used to describe courteous behavior, especially that of men towards women.

This is Wikipedia's basic definition of chivalry.

It's virtues were basically the following:

Honour, mercy, justice, faith, courage, generosity, and hope.

The concept of chivalry (though not always known as that), was in existence even before the Middle Ages, as evident in the Roman writer Vegetius' work, De Re Militari.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Re_Militari

[Exarch]

being chivalrousnin this day adn age means being a gentleman ie giving up your seat on the bus to ladies and old ppl, using phrases like 'please' and 'thank you' and charming the knickers of women...
yep that's me

[The Good]

being chivalrousnin this day adn age means being a gentleman ie giving up your seat on the bus to ladies and old ppl, using phrases like 'please' and 'thank you' and charming the knickers of women...
yep that's me

I was just about to clarify that, in a more modern sense, but thanks to you, it's been done.

[PacSubCom]

"Chivalry" is something that developed out of the medieval habit of treating women as property, especially in the upper classes, where women had no work to do.

Today women are free, chivalry is not necessary and therefore dead or even sexist. A woman who expects chivalry admits she is property.

People decide in the first 3 seconds whether they want to you or not. No time for chivalry to have any effect.

[Mathais]

I wouldnt say that it is old fashioned for why should it be. It is true that we live in a place where it it every man for him self. I see no reason why we shouldnt when we live in a world that needs its. I live by it the best I can for with out such act we become somthing lower than animals. To see that happen to someone is sad for it makes them forget as to what there able to be.

[Astaroth]

Yeah, because we all know sex is the only thing that matters. Who would want to just be nice to others, to be treated respectfully in return and to have (female) friends! Oh wait...

And by the way, often men "get" women because of their charme and their way of acting, talking etc not because the woman wants to "" them in the first 3 seconds.

[PacSubCom]

Yeah, because we all know sex is the only thing that matters. Who would want to just be nice to others, to be treated respectfully in return and to have (female) friends! Oh wait...

And by the way, often men "get" women because of their charme and their way of acting, talking etc not because the woman wants to "" them in the first 3 seconds.

Yes, that is the rationalization they give you.

3 seconds.

[Shaun]

Chivalry was necessary back in ye old days when women were not much more than property.

Today things are different, though. Women are of equal status to men, so there is absolutely no reason to be chivalrous to them any more. Treat them like you would any other person.

[dwringer]

Chivalry was necessary back in ye old days when women were not much more than property.

Today things are different, though. Women are of equal status to men, so there is absolutely no reason to be chivalrous to them any more. Treat them like you would any other person.

Oh please, that's pretty revisionist and mainly a position pushed by radical feminists.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Isn't chivalry synonymous with being gentlemanly? I don't think it is dead, but the stereotypical chivalry occurs less frequently.

Pop culture has morphed what chivalry is in my opinion. It's not all about knights in shining armor saving princesses from evil lords, it's about manners. For example, holding a door open for women, or helping an elderly woman with the groceries?

Chivalry s not dead.

[xzyx]

I consider myself to be as chivalrous as the situation allows me to be. It has nothing to do with "women=property", but more to the concepts of honor and education. While I do think it's nearly dead, there are still educated people in the world. THey are just outnumbered. And no matter how much women are considered equal they won't want to be treated like other men. Treating both women and men well, helping always when possible and trying to do the right thing no matter what- that''s chivalry. And when that dies, the world will be in it's last days.

[Desperado †]

Honour, mercy, justice, faith, courage, generosity, and hope.

To me, the only true part of Chivalry is Honour, which includes Mercy, Justice and Generosity.

Courage was mostly used by Kings and such as a word to make people fight for longer, and kill more people. It is a silly concept. You can have true Courage, when you might be fighting against something that is powerfull but very evil. But for me Courage is mostly not right - to continue fighting something when it scares you. Well it depends if this something is bad. But if it is putting yourself on the line for the protection of helpless, then it is Honour.

I am an atheist so Hope and Faith are not for me. Trust on the other hand, can once again be put into Honour.

Honour is doing the right thing, even if it does not benefit yourself.

I love the idea of honour. I believe it sets us apart from animals as it often goes against our instincts. It makes us better people, but not for the sake of being better.

I like to think that Honour still exists today. But we barely ever hear of the Honourable people. They tend not to be the 'winners'. They tend to be the people that don't take advantage of girls and loose them to people who do. The people who don't push other people down to climb our social ladders and careers. So often Honourable people tend to be 'loosers' to some extent.

The main reason I hate Capatilism is because it contradicts Honour. It's all dog eat dog, find your own way, win or loose. Its never help the innocent, dont blame people for the position their in.

[The Good]

@Caradog, even if you are atheist, that doesn't mean faith and hope are useless. You certainly can have faith or hope in a person (loved or befriended), or even certain people, not necessarily God.

I think chivalry is something of a lost art, something that's fading away in today's people, or is becoming less common. And yes, I believe chivalry is the same thing as being a gentleman, as Pontifex put it.

[Vladimir Lenin]

The main reason I hate Capatilism is because it contradicts Honour. It's all dog eat dog, find your own way, win or loose. Its never help the innocent, dont blame people for the position their in.

I agree with you, Honor, Mercy, and Justice are all incredibly important things, but I fail to see how Capitalism prevents you from pursuing such values.

[Bovril]

I agree with you, Honor, Mercy, and Justice are all incredibly important things, but I fail to see how Capitalism prevents you from pursuing such values.

I doesn't, but the reward/punishment system inherant in capitalism favours calous competitiveness, extremely short term thinking and a sort of vieled disdain for those that do not share one's own interests that is perhaps its most insideous aspect. Capitalism essentially rewards individuals for two things: investment power (essentially capital) and bargaining power. It certainly does not reward cooperation or benevolence, and any reward it gives to socially useful outcomes is purely incidental.

[Bovril]

I don't think chivalry is a terribly useful term these days because it comes with far too much baggage and is far too ambiguous to actually be applied. Just forget therm chivalry (whether you think it has positive, nuetral or negative conotations) and try and say cleary what you really want. Buzz words are for politicians and other people trying to sell us things. Let's try and get beyoind them.

[MaximiIian]

I don't think chivalry necessarily need be based around the idea that women, or any other persons, are property. This isn't the middle ages, but the chivalrous principles of honour, integrity, temperance, courtesy, and piety (in whatever you feel is worth being faithful to, not necessarily a religion) are very noble ideals that should be striven for and are indeed necessary. If you feel more comfortable thinking of chivalry in terms of "being a gentleman", then that's fine as well. It fits the definition. The important thing is that those principles do not die out.

[The Good]

I never said that one has to be a knight to be chivalrous, a gentleman is quite enough, but I agree with your post.

[MaximiIian]

Oh, I didn't direct that to you per se. More toward some people earlier in the thread who were all like "Chivalry is wrong because it means women are property" and "it's wrong 'cuz it's from the middle ages".
Which are crap arguments, IMO.

[The Good]

Oh, I didn't direct that to you per se. More toward some people earlier in the thread who were all like "Chivalry is wrong because it means women are property" and "it's wrong 'cuz it's from the middle ages".
Which are crap arguments, IMO.

Thanks for the clarification.

Originally, I started this thread to discuss the concept, the mannerisms of chivalry, rather than the social status most commonly related to it (i.e. knights, nobles, kings).

However, it's not a wrong thing to call chivalry a "knightly virtue," as it was, and it still is even for some modern knights (yes, they still exist in Europe).