Smith bonuses

[Taiji]

I am confused about smiths and I hope someone can help me.

They appear to give +1 per upgrade, do they really only give +1 or is there some invisible extra bonus?

Thanks for any assistance!

[Zombimode]

You mean armor?
Some people say an armor upgrade equals in 2 - 2,5 points of armor. From my expierience this is not true, and the upgrade give exactly 1 point per upgrade.
But Im not 100% sure on this, and if I had the time I would run some extensive test to get this matter straight.

Same is true for weapon upgrades. Some people say it equals in +6 to attack. I use a very low attack value stat system (eg. spear = 2, sword = 4, elite sword inf like DFK = 6 etc) so even a +1 is notable. A +6 increases the killspeed enormously. From my ingame experience this is not the case with units with weaponupgrades, but more akin to +1.
But, again, I havent tested it thoroughly, so take it with a grain of salt.

[JaM]

i did a lot of tests and i can confirm upgrades adds +2 armor

[Zombimode]

Ok, consider me beaten.
I made the test, and yes, the +2 - 2,5 is correct. BUT only if the armour_ug_levels are set correctly.
I based my statsystem arrund the (false) assumption, the armorupgrade gives +1 and set the armour_ug_levels like 0, 1, 1
in this case the armor will not exceed 2. I have tested this.
That means a unit with armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 2 and two armor upgrades will have an armor of about 4, while a unit with armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 1 and two upgrades will have an armor of 2.

[Taiji]

Thankyou very much Zombimode and Jam, you've really helped me a lot there.

To clarify with an example it seems you're saying that these stats below would leave the unit with around 13 armor at final upgrade:

stat_pri_armour 9

armour_ug_levels 4, 5, 6

Now I have to revise the EDU I am working on completely.

Thanks again guys, you saved me from a big mess!

[alhoon]

Oooops It seems I have messed up then.

What do you mean a unit with armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 1 will have an armor of 2? That since the armour ug_level X, X, 1 is what it counts and counts as about armor 2?

So if we set the following:
stat_pri_armour 5
armour_ug_levels 4, 5, 3

The unit will have armor 5, armor 7 and armor 3 after the final upgrade?

[Taiji]

Wow what a confusing and good question Alhoon!

I hope to see the answer for this as I have to admit Zombimodes post confused me too.

I thought "armour_ug_levels 4, 5, 6" just indicated the smith level needed to upgrade.

If I put "armour_ug_levels 4, 5, 5" will I need a lvl 6 smith to build the last one?

Will I need to upgrade the unit twice at a lvl 5 smith or will it skip an upgrade model?

Will it only upgrade me 1 one point?

So confused.

[Zombimode]

Oooops It seems I have messed up then.

What do you mean a unit with armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 1 will have an armor of 2? That since the armour ug_level X, X, 1 is what it counts and counts as about armor 2?

So if we set the following:
stat_pri_armour 5
armour_ug_levels 4, 5, 3

The unit will have armor 5, armor 7 and armor 3 after the final upgrade?

Thats indeed an interesting question. I havent tried to set up armor "downgrades", I dont know if or how it works.

To your first question, in my example the unit, when upgraded, will recieve two upgrades at once. But since both have the same armour_ug_level, they are still considered as armored with padded armor and thus have an armor of 2. At least thats my rational behind it. I have tested units with natural armor of 2 and upgraded units with armour_ug_level 0, 1, 1 and they performed similar in combat, worse than a unit with natural armor of 4, and better than a unit with armor 0.

If I put "armour_ug_levels 4, 5, 5" will I need a lvl 6 smith to build the last one?

Will I need to upgrade the unit twice at a lvl 5 smith or will it skip an upgrade model?

No, it will upgrade at once with a lvl 5 smith.
In contrast to my other statements consider this a fact, since this is how it works in my game for a year now

[Taiji]

Sorry if I am getting this wrong but it looks like you are saying that "armour_ug_levels 0, 1" is equal to "armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 1" as it seems both will give 2 armor. If so why would you ever use "armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 1" or any variation where the third number is the same as the second?

Another question if I put "armour_ug_levels 3, 6" will I get 6 (3x2) points of armor from the single upgrade?

This is very interesting

[Zombimode]

If so why would you ever use "armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 1" or any variation where the third number is the same as the second?

Visionals
The unit card will show the second armor point.

A armour_ug_levels 0, 1 unit will show "armor 1"
A armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 1 unit will show "armor 2"
Thats the only reason

[JaM]

nope, armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 1 adds +4 points at least with kingdom exe.

dont test it two units against each other - other variables came to play during this (morale, attack speed, animations,etc...) if you want to test how upgrades works always test it with missiles - just take one unit of archers,give them missile attack 1 and then try armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 1 and armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 2 at least 10xtimes. then do average and you will see that results are identical...

[Taiji]

Thankyou Jam, that is very clear! I appreciate your advice, your method of testing seems sound.

Something very cool, I have had problems with classifying Ritterbruder armor. It goes from heavy mail to advanced plate in 1 upgrade.

armour_ug_levels 3, 6, 6, 6 - this should accurately model that transformation and so no more overpowered ritterbruder too early in the game.

I must test this right now!

Thanks Jam and Zombimode, you both helped me a lot to figure this out!

[Zombimode]

nope, armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 1 adds +4 points at least with kingdom exe.

dont test it two units against each other - other variables came to play during this (morale, attack speed, animations,etc...) if you want to test how upgrades works always test it with missiles - just take one unit of archers,give them missile attack 1 and then try armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 1 and armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 2 at least 10xtimes. then do average and you will see that results are identical...

I bow to your superior testing skillz

Well, I guess that means a long night with me, the edu and some coffein pills (well, I dont actually use coffein pills, but they would help)

But thanks for clarifying :top:

Edit: it begs the question, why on earth the unit card dont show the right value? And why this hasnt been fixed by this time. Its probably like changing one line of code...

[JaM]

Because it would require CA to listen... everybody is telling them this,but they ignore it...


One thing - becarefull with armor value - it is not linked with upgrade, so if your armor value is 0 and first upgrade is 3,then you will get just +2 armor. That may cause lots of inacuracies. My suggestion is to level all armor values for units that dont have armor.

Instead of 0,3,4,5 and starting armor 0, use 2,3,4,5 and armor 4. in first example your armor value is 0->2->4->6, in second example it is 4->6->8->10

[Tsarsies]

from my understanding, this 'armour_ug_levels 3, 6, 6, 6' will only register the first 3 upgrades, because each unit can have no more then 3 upgrades (from the testing i did like a year ago anyway). the numbers 3, 6, 6, 6 are pointless, because a level 6 armor capability given from a smith will automatically set it to 6, in effect only having 2 upgrades, 3 and 6. Each armor upgrade must have an associated upgrade model. Each number refers to the 'armor' capability of the smith and each upgrade (armor capability) grants 2 armor. in turn you can set each smith to have as many armor upgrades as u like, a unit will automatically upgrade to its highest level with each smith. If a smith grants...
armor 5
armor 6
then a unit capable of upgrading to 5 and 6 with upgrade to 6. if the smithi just had
armor 5
it would only upgrade to 5.

the armor capability can be changed in both the EDU and EDB, the upgrade level can be
armour_ug_levels 1, 4, 8 iof you so wanted
although most mods only work in steps of 1-6. RR originally, like a year ago or more, had 12 armor upgrades, with 2 armor upgrades per smith. It has since changed due to balance reasons.

straigh form the EDU
; armour_ug_levels Smith level needed for each armour upgrade
; armour_ug_models Body for each upgrade level

[JaM]

You can set same body for same level. Point Blank use in latest RR two upgrades for Partial plate, so when you upgrade from heavy mail you will get +4 armor points.

for example Feudal knights are:

stat_pri_armour 7, 4, 5, metal
armour_ug_levels 3, 4, 4, 6
armour_ug_models Feudal_Knights, Feudal_Knights_ug1, Feudal_Knights_ug1

that makes them start as Feudal_Knights and armor level 3, next upgrade is to partial plate which is counted as 2 upgrades,so unit will go dirrectly to silver upgrade (stats table show it as +2 armor) so effective armor will be 7+4=11 and unit visuals will be Feudal_Knights_ug1. Last upgrade is 6, so after that unit will have gold shield, its armor value will be 11+2=13 and visual will stay Feudal_Knights_ug1,because there is no other specified.


oh, and btw, first number represents current armor level (but it also must much armor value,else you will have unit that looks like it has heavy mail but its effective armor is lower than it should be)

[Tsarsies]

ok i think i see, the armor numbers (the capability in the EDB) are merely tied to a smith to determine when the unit can upgrade to the next chevron? so if a blacksmith allows armor 4, a unit will upgrade to 4, if as in your example it has 4, 4, 6, it will get two upgrades with this black smith. so the values 4, 4, 6 actually do nothing but represent a smith in number. like 1 = leather tanner, 2 = blacksmith etc etc. the unit merely upgrades to the highest chevron class per smith. each upgrade chevron granting 2 armor points.

Which would explain why people assume each level gives 1 armor point, if 3 chevrons is the most a unit can have which is equal to 6 armor points? and 6 tiers of smith, its only coincidental of course... as a unit can only upgrade 3 times... anyway...

but yes, now i see it alot clearer...

Thanks for clearing that up for me Jam +Rep