Recent GCS Campaign

[Froggie5]

Quick report on my recent GCS campaign on most recent version of XGM. I started on H/H. The Macedonians were all out for me from the beginning and I had to have a few lucky breaks and make use of the Spartan guard to resist and then wipe them out. From there things moved along rather well, not too easy with plenty of aggression from Thrace. I was surprised by the Rhodes garrison script, which was nice as it prevents acquisition of the wonder on the cheap.

I was initially allied with Rome but then my troubles began when they turned east. This is one of the very few XGM campaigns that I have played in which Rome actually expanded (in this case to sw France, Sicily, and islands). It is also perhaps the first in which Carthage is holding firm, at least in 232BC (they usually fall right over to Iberia). So, on the global scale I am very happy with the relative balance of power and expansion. Even Scythia is being held in check for the moment.

So, anyway, even with army barracks cranking out hoplites, Athenian hoplites, and hypaspists my armies were simply no match for the Romans, even pre-Marian. I just got slaughtered. I switched the battle difficulty to medium and had some success, at least against Roman captains, but now (in 232BC) they are coming in with 5-6 full stacks of double silver chevron legionaries. At this point I just threw in the towel.

I will try again and perhaps I will have to do what I usually do as Carthage - go right at Rome. It seems if either the player or one of the ai factions don't bottle them up early then it is hopeless. Given how difficult it can be to play the Romans oneself, this seems surprising to me.

So, that's the report. I would appreciate any suggestions on how I might manage the Romans in the future - I would love to square off with them late in the game as two super-factions, but it doesn't seem possible to survive that long.

[Legio]

Build a good economy and bribe every other captain, sometimes even a cheap general.
I always find that hoplites, thorakitai, and archers slaughter Romans.
Put hoppies in the center, thorakitai on the flanks, archers behind your lines.
When the Romans charge, fire barrages of regular arrows, and your thorakitai javelins.
Then, hold the Romans in place with hoppies, and maneuver your general behind the Romans, killing any velites you find on the way. Then keep charging the flanks and rear of the already engaged Romans, causing a mass rout.
Then hunt them down at your leisure. This works with even gold experience Romans, check my AAR For the Hegemony of the Balkans in teh AAR fora here at XGM for a few Roman-killing battles like this.

[LucretiusTC]

You could try this combination of the Greek army against the Romans. At first in the middle there could be at least 5 units of Phalangites (or Armoured Phalangites), and then on both sides e.g. Athenian or regular Greek Hoplites (2-4 units), Thorakitai or Marines (2-4 units), and later possibly Italic Infantry (similar to Hastati), depending what kind of units happen to be available. But the first line of defence and offence could be skirmishing units with loose formations, e.g. Thurephoroi (2 units), Illyrian Light Infantry (2 units), Rhodian Slingers (1 unit) and Cretan Archers (1 units). Also Tarantine Cavalry is a pretty good unit to weaken the Roman army.

Usually the Romans put most of the pressure to those heavy infantry units that are protecting the flanks of Phalangites (at least 5 units in the middle).

Luc.

[Stilgar CG]

... Usually the Romans put most of the pressure to those heavy infantry units that are protecting the flanks of Phalangites (at least 5 units in the middle).
Luc.

Indeed, AI very often, if not always, press on flanks. This could mean that your phalanx -your line holding part of army- is barely engaged, wheares your wings get beating. You can turn phalanx to flank the engaged enemy, but this breaks your own line, opens the centre, and create risk.

With Romans it might be appropriate to move your phalanx to a flank, complete centre with some spearmen. Thorakitai would do, but samnites or italic spearmen are also ok, if you have invaded Italy. Still, keep a unit or two of light infantry to keep phalanx from being outflanked. So, in such a formation, you can be pretty sure that your "phalanx" wing and centre can take care of themselves. This would allow one focus on defeating enemy on the other flank, e.g. by concentrating there your missile units, cavalry, elite units etc. After you win battle there, it's time to attack the enemy pinned by phalangists and claim the victory .

Edit: If you have 6-8 (or more) phalanx units, splitting those in two groups and placing them on flanks might also be an interesting option. I haven't tested this sort formation extensively yet. In any case, flank of the phalanx better be protected, or elite/experienced/upgraded phalanx units should go to flanks.

[Manoflooks]

Hold them off at your walls, which need to be reinforced, as they can easily win against better enemies, then send a strong stack across the adriatic and attack rome. send a bunch of spies to open the gates, or onagers. take rome, and the otehr big cities. after that, they are crushed. works every time.

[Froggie5]

Thanks for the tips. I will definitely try the phalanx wing approach as they do seem to concentrate on the flanks. I have been using unit mixes as described above but found that the Romans just chewed through my line, even when they were surrounded. Placing the phalangites on the wings may help.

EDIT:

Well, I gave it a try and just seems as hopeless as ever. I didn't think I was that bad of a general. There is only so much you can do when it literally takes four units of chevroned hoplites to take out one unit of hastati. The legionary cohorts? Forget it. I will try a new campaign on M/M and hope someone else trips up the Romans, at least until I can swamp them 2 or 3 to one. Thanks again for the tips

[DimeBagHo]

Thanks for the report Froggie5. The Romans are usually tough, and it can be hard to pin them down, but I don't think I've ever had that much trouble with them. Relying on hoplites might be part of the problem - some of the elite hoplite units might do well, but regular hoplites are going to struggle against experienced Roman troops. Personally I'd go for Armoured Phalangites and the heaviest cavalry you can get (Elephants if they are available).

Is anyone else having this much trouble with the Romans?

[Froggie5]

Thanks for the reply DBH. Other don't seem to be struggling as much as me. I am sure that I am just not fielding the proper soldier mix and that I let the Romans get away from me (ie they are grossly out-recruiting me at this point and I can't catch up).

I have handled them fine in previous campaigns, usually by striking early (esp as Carthage). As I said I will give it another go and try to stop any Roman agression early, but hopefully w/o resorting to an invasion of Italy.

[Legio]

Invading the Peninsula is the only way to go, mate.

[Scutarii]

Gotta hate those bloody Romans, eh? They're so tough because of the +2 experience bonus (or is it 3?) they get right off the bat from their monument. So every unit they recruit (and they're already pretty good, even Pre-Marian) gets 2 chevrons, plus most of the time they get an additional 1-2 from the temple of Mars. I've had full stacks of 4 chevroned Legionnaired come at me and I cringe every time... My armies take a beating when that happens. My strategy is usually to kill them early on... But when thats impossible, a naval invasion of Sicily and Italy is imperative, take Rome as early as possible. And bring elephants, and if you can get them (try killing Carthage first if you can) Numidian cav.

[pwnerx]

What I do is have 1/4 phalangites, 1/4 mobile infantry, 1/4 missile cavalry, and 1/4 general's bodyguards. Since the Romans like to spread out their army, you can pin their units with infantry and use your cavalry to surround and rout a few units at a time.

[Stilgar CG]

Romans are tough, indeed (I am playing on Hard). As they should be. They have very decent stats, and with those pila and/or large shields they kill and got experience pretty fast, I agree with Scutarii. And, if they start "spamming" with triarii, then it is even more fun .

Only heavy and/or upgraded infantry can deal successfully with Roman infantry hand-to-hand. As a helenic faction (GCS, Macs, TSE, Egypt), you also need some advantage in missile units (on flanks) and/or in cavalry. Experienced (a chevron or two + weapon upgrade) slingers running behind enemy line and firing in the back will make triarii or any other infantry pieces in no time . Hammering with cavalry is also a very decent solution, but you need heavy and preferably upgraded cavalry. Well, elephants will do as well .

Overall, I do not feel Romans are overpowered. Fighting them is challenge and fun.

P.S. Btw, I'll post an update in my AAR with a couple of final battles in Italy. Should be relevant for this dicussion.

[Kara Kolyo]

Haven't played against romans recently but have you tried to add falxmen to your army? put a unit or two behind your hoplites and when they are engaged, move the falxmen on their flanks and start hacking away. I'm planing to add the noble falxmen to the top level auxiliary barracks in thrace so that the hellenic factions will have a unit that doesn't die so easily under fire.

[Zarax]

Stat wise romans are good, though but not unbeatable.
The problem comes when the experience bonuses are applied, making autocalc a sure way to loose.
Imho we can keep the romans powerful but we should do it in a different way.

The experience bonus has to go as historically freshly recruited roman armies were pretty underwhelming (not exactly weaklings but their morale was shaky) while at the same time they should have slightly cheaper infantry.

Rome's strength at the time was in numbers, they had the potential to field more armies than their enemies most of the time (around 700k men at the time of the 2nd punic war), which is what allowed them to win in many occasions against superior enemies (Pyrrhus was the first to experience it... kill one roman army and next time they will just bring a bigger one) as manpower gave them time to learn from their losses.

Other than that, vanilla XGM is definitely not a game for turtlers...

[LucretiusTC]

In my recent GCS campaign (XGM 5.7.22; H/H) I used these kind of Greek armies against the pre-Marian Romans:





Because of those new starting regions (Athens, Sparta, Patras, Cydonia) I didn´t have worry much about the Seleucid Empire in the East, and I fought mostly against the Indy Greeks and Pontus in Asia Minor. My first clashes against Rome happened somewhere near Salona, Illyria, and I started the invasion of Italy from Tarentum that was weakly defended.

Otherwise I am a great believer of training units and I try to give those units all sorts of weapon, armour, and experience bonuses before I send them to the battlefront...

Luc.

[Scutarii]

Stat wise romans are good, though but not unbeatable.
The problem comes when the experience bonuses are applied, making autocalc a sure way to loose.
Imho we can keep the romans powerful but we should do it in a different way.

The experience bonus has to go as historically freshly recruited roman armies were pretty underwhelming (not exactly weaklings but their morale was shaky) while at the same time they should have slightly cheaper infantry.

Rome's strength at the time was in numbers, they had the potential to field more armies than their enemies most of the time (around 700k men at the time of the 2nd punic war), which is what allowed them to win in many occasions against superior enemies (Pyrrhus was the first to experience it... kill one roman army and next time they will just bring a bigger one) as manpower gave them time to learn from their losses.

Other than that, vanilla XGM is definitely not a game for turtlers...

This is exactly what I think should happen. The Roman's current experience bonus is ridiculous, Romans were not super-soldiers, and definitely didn't train their soldiers to the point where green troops can stand up to experienced troops from other nations. Making units cheaper would do the trick in my opinion, and possibly increasing economic bonuses from their founding monument.