Battle for Bajour (Taliban)

[mrmouth]

The analysis coming out of media outlets in the US and Pakistan say the ongoing, all-out battle in Bajour Agency, Pakistan, could very well be the crux of the Pakistani army’s fight against that country’s Islamic militantcy.


The fight is so important to all parties involved that the Taliban are moving forces from Afghanistan to reinforce fighters in Bajour, particularly from Kunar Province. To the Pakistani government, and the Americans closely watching, the fight for Bajour may be the tipping point where either the Pakistani Army or the militants will gain strength, or lose clout, across Pakistan’s entire tribal agency.


In recent days, Pakistani forces, backed by tanks and artillery, have slowly started pushing toward Lowi Sam, just northwest of Khar. The troops are fending off hit and run attacks and roadside bombs as they go. The fighting has killed up to 10 militants since Sunday and has led to the discovery of multiple complex tunnel and trench networks that have left the Pakistanis impressed. According to Pakistani media group, Dawn, a senior Pakistani official says, “They have good weaponry and a better communication system (than ours). Even the sniper rifles they use are better than some of ours. Their tactics are mind-boggling and they have defences that would take us days to build. It does not look as though we are fighting a rag-tag militia; they are fighting like an organized force.”


Since the Bajour offensive began August 6, varied reports say between 100 and 700 militants have been killed, with the higher number more regularly reported. As many as 300,000 civilians have also been displaced by the fighting.


The offensive marks the first time in which regular Pakistani forces (a brigade) have been integrated with Pakistan’s Frontier Corps. Some say the move is an indication of a new found determination to combat internal terrorism; a determination that has taken on an increased zeal since the deadly bombing of the Islamabad Marriot which claimed more than 50 lives. Various reports speculate the bombing was in response to the government offensive in Bajour.

The tribes of Bajour also seem to be taking sides against the militants, including the Mamond tribe, which is considered to be a base foundation for the militants. The defection of the Mamond tribe to the government side could mark a significant turn in the battle. The Salazar tribe, already organized against the militants, continue to attack pro-Taliban elements which include the burning of homes connected to the Taliban as recently as September 22. A third tribe, the Untmankhel, have also raised forces to combat the militants.

Bajour Agency is a major stronghold for Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters, most aligned with Baitullah Mehsud, leader of the Pakistani Taliban. The area is also regularly named as a hiding spot for Osama bin Laden.


http://www.battlefieldtourist.com/co...yes-on-bajour/
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/23/wo...html?ref=world

[Rapax]

The fight is so important to all parties involved that the Taliban are moving forces from Afghanistan to reinforce fighters in Bajour, particularly from Kunar Province. To the Pakistani government, and the Americans closely watching, the fight for Bajour may be the tipping point where either the Pakistani Army or the militants will gain strength, or lose clout, across Pakistan’s entire tribal agency.

Interesting. Kinda bites itself with this gloomy prediction here though:

KABUL, Afghanistan — Since Afghans took up arms against the Soviet occupation in 1979, insurgency in war-torn Afghanistan has followed a cyclical pattern. The spring and the summer are for fighting. The winter — which, particularly along the mountainous, porous eastern border with Pakistan, can feature six-foot snowbanks — is for regrouping. Until, perhaps, now.

U.S. military officials are warning that intelligence now indicates that the Taliban-led insurgency in Afghanistan plans to launch major operations this winter. While those officials publicly claim they’re prepared for a winter offensive, it would place U.S. counterinsurgency efforts in unfamiliar territory, with little precedent to guide them. It would likely entail a major escalation of insurgent aggression to cap off what has already been the bloodiest year for the U.S. military in the seven-year war.
http://washingtonindependent.com/685...in-afghanistan

[Gumpfendorfer]

The offensive marks the first time in which regular Pakistani forces (a brigade) have been integrated with Pakistan’s Frontier Corps.

Finally some real combat troops deployed instead of the paramilitary Frontier Corps. Well, its a good start now that Musharraf has gone. Whether this is going to be the tipping point is hard to say, other than if the PakMil messes up this one, I would be packing my bags if I was living in North West Frontier.

[Carach]

Finally some real combat troops deployed instead of the paramilitary Frontier Corps. Well, its a good start now that Musharraf has gone. Whether this is going to be the tipping point is hard to say, other than if the PakMil messes up this one, I would be packing my bags if I was living in North West Frontier.

werent people hailing the loss of musharraf as the biggest american defeat with regards to afghanistan? :/

[Gumpfendorfer]

werent people hailing the loss of musharraf as the biggest american defeat with regards to afghanistan? :/

Yes, and they were and they were wrong. The secular guys in Pakistan know what is at stake: their lives, its very basic. They can be corrupt afterwards

I've pm'ed you a link to a article on the tribals by the way, a short summary.

[GeneralLee]

Interesting. Kinda bites itself with this gloomy prediction here though:

KABUL, Afghanistan — Since Afghans took up arms against the Soviet occupation in 1979, insurgency in war-torn Afghanistan has followed a cyclical pattern. The spring and the summer are for fighting. The winter — which, particularly along the mountainous, porous eastern border with Pakistan, can feature six-foot snowbanks — is for regrouping. Until, perhaps, now.

U.S. military officials are warning that intelligence now indicates that the Taliban-led insurgency in Afghanistan plans to launch major operations this winter. While those officials publicly claim they’re prepared for a winter offensive, it would place U.S. counterinsurgency efforts in unfamiliar territory, with little precedent to guide them. It would likely entail a major escalation of insurgent aggression to cap off what has already been the bloodiest year for the U.S. military in the seven-year war.
http://washingtonindependent.com/685...in-afghanistan

The winter? Now our equipment advantage comes even more into play. Infrared in a cold environment, gortex, etc the cold goings to be more element than theirs as it is more equipment dependent.

[Rapax]

The winter? Now our equipment advantage comes even more into play. Infrared in a cold environment, gortex, etc the cold goings to be more element than theirs as it is more equipment dependent.

I'm glad you took the most relevant points away from this Mr. military expert.

[GeneralLee]

I'm glad you took the most relevant points away from this Mr. military expert.

hmm first post in three months and I had to go and dick the dog on the spelling and grammar, figures.

Im sorry I missed the point of "OMG their attacking us in winter, panic!" What I, inarticulately, was trying to point out is the winter exacerbates what was already an equipment disadvantage for the Taliban. They're not yeti's the cold is their enemy as much as ours and we're better equipped to fight it. In addition to that warm bodies on a very cold background are easy to see on infrared cameras, Im sure its like a spotlight when they're against snow and the camera is mounted on a UAV or vehicle.

There are some legitimate concerns in them attacking during the winter that you didn't mention. It could mean they have enough friendly villages in Afghanistan to supply them during winter fighting. Think about it, winter probably isn't a time of plenty in that poor of a country so feeding a force in the field will not be easy. they probably wont get ready handouts from the locals. It would require some logistics planning, and I don't think the the Taliban will be running supply trains over the border. They'll need someone that's planned and stocked up locally. The other implication is that they believe it is necessary to start fighting in the winter. This could be a positive sign for NATO they may have decided losses were to heavy or the progress was to slow during the spring, albeit its only a silver lining with how Afghanistan's been going recently.

[Rapax]

I guess instead of concerning yourself with the ability of infra red technology, like that was ever a problem, you should think about the limited ability of our vehicles moving through afghanistans bad roads in winter, nevermind what an especially cold winter is gonna do to our helicopters.
It's actually taking away some of our superior abilities, not enhancing them.

[PakistanLover]

We will win. Pakistan is not goign to fall to these terrorist scum. The Taliban will fall for what they did in Islamabad!

[Carach]

so pakistan are finally doing something that should of happened years ago? they best stick with this time too, or those tribes that have switched sides are in for some trouble.

[JP226]

Since the Bajour offensive began August 6, varied reports say between 100 and 700 militants have been killed, with the higher number more regularly reported. As many as 300,000 civilians have also been displaced by the fighting.

how many god damned taliban are there? We've been killing them left and right and they are like fricken rats.

[Rapax]

Which is why bodycounts are a wishy washy way of determining success.

[Serious Spamurai]

Pakistan Zindabad.

[Burnum]

Pakistan Zindabad.

My Urdu is pretty shocking, but doesn't it mean "praise to the lands of the pure?"

[Serious Spamurai]

My Urdu is pretty shocking, but doesn't it mean "praise to the lands of the pure?"

"Long live Pakistan". It's better when followed by "Hindustan Murdabad" (death to India) .

[Babur]

"Long live Pakistan". It's better when followed by "Hindustan Murdabad" (death to India) .

LOL I taught you "Murdabad",Spammy

You just wanted me to post here didn't you?

But on topic

This battle is probably the first big test for Zardari's government

[VALIS]

The Pakistani armed forces have attacked US helicopters and have threatned to attack US ground forces should they see them, although the pakistani regime does not want the Taliban to succede they don't want incursions by US forces either and aren't allowing the US to come into the country with assistance.

Also, the pakistani Army has tried to suppress the taliban controlled tribal regions before and failed, there is great divisions in Pakistani society whether to support these extremists or destroy them, I'm sure some of those divisions exist within the Pakistani army and governments, thus the indecision as to what to do.

[Scar Face]

The Pakistani armed forces have attacked US helicopters and have threatned to attack US ground forces should they see them, although the pakistani regime does not want the Taliban to succede they don't want incursions by US forces either and aren't allowing the US to come into the country with assistance.

Also, the pakistani Army has tried to suppress the taliban controlled tribal regions before and failed, there is great divisions in Pakistani society whether to support these extremists or destroy them, I'm sure some of those divisions exist within the Pakistani army and governments, thus the indecision as to what to do.

After all these years of gathering strength, now they decide to make their move. Without Western aid? Win, lose or draw, they are looking at mass casualties. I guess its good news that they actually have made a move, rather than sitting on their hands for ages on end. Good luck in that case, they damn well will need it.

[mrmouth]

The Pakistani armed forces have attacked US helicopters and have threatned to attack US ground forces should they see them, although the pakistani regime does not want the Taliban to succede they don't want incursions by US forces either and aren't allowing the US to come into the country with assistance.

Also, the pakistani Army has tried to suppress the taliban controlled tribal regions before and failed, there is great divisions in Pakistani society whether to support these extremists or destroy them, I'm sure some of those divisions exist within the Pakistani army and governments, thus the indecision as to what to do.

Its all very speculative as to whether or not actual Pakistani troops fired on any US helos. Even if they did, its not as if the order came from Islamabad. Its very complex.

Aside from the stance Pakistan takes in the media as to US incursions, its all to save face. They have known in the past that we come across, and even now they likely grant us permission to do so with small units. With the understanding that they have to shake their fist a bit when the media picks up on it.

Aside from that, we offer plenty of support in many ways. The two Americans killed in the Marriott bombing had just returned from Bajour where they were advising.

If you had read the article, it spells out in no uncertain terms that this op is much different than any other incursion into other tribal agencies. This is an all out, do or die effort. They either clean the area out, or fail miserably, with very real consequences for Pakistan, and Afghanistan. This is the agency where the leadership of AQ and the Taliban reside. Its the heart and brain.

This op has been going on for almost two months. Indecision or not, its reality and been reality for quite some time. The recent bombing has only turned people over to the side of the parties who want to deal with the foreigners pulling the strings in that region.

This whole thing is incredibly important, and I'm a bit shocked that this thread got buried, under some true gems.