Looking for convincing arguments for & against religion

[Graf Hakenfels]

I'd like to hear from others what kind of arguments you would use against religion when talking to a church-going friend or what kind of arguments you would use in his position.

This question is personal for me because I am trying to bring together a list of reasons to explain to a church-going friend why I no longer "believe".

Some backstory: I'm in my early twenties and have been firmly non-religious for atleast 6 years without my friend knowing. The friend I am talking about is like a father to me, so I want to use only respectful, but convincing arguments. My main reason for not sharing my position with him sooner is because I didn't want him to worry/pray for me to be "saved" all the time. He had other issues to deal with at the time and I felt like it would be an unfair burden.

It's been getting more and more uncomfortable to keep my position hidden from him. Especially now that I will be starting my career in the military. I know after I go through boot camp I will be more open about who I really am. I don't want him to blame himself for not trying harder to keep me out of the military. Through his eyes, it would seem like the military turned me into an "unsaved" person that needs help becoming "saved".

In my opinion, religion exists for 4 main reasons:
1. To explain the unexplainable. Ex: Thunder is the gods' wrath.
- I don't feel the need to understand everything, and constant advances in science offer logical explanations for more and more things.

2. To provide a coping method for stressful experiences. Ex: Mommy is with Jesus now.
- I have experienced deaths, accidents, and disease affecting close friends and family members. I understand this is the course of nature, and don't need explanations why they happened to make it easier to deal with.

3. To provide moral guidelines. Ex: Don't steal.
- I will admit, religious beliefs kept me out of some bad situations as a young child, but now I have developed my own set of morals. I consider myself a "good" person overall, and have noticed no major negative effects for being non-religious for the last 6 years.

4. To control the masses. Ex: The medieval papacy & modern islamofascism.
- This is not part of my case supporting my position, but just the last reason why religion exists, in my opinion.


In other words, my reason for not being religious is that I don't feel like I need religion. I am open to the existance of "god", but I'm leaning away from that at this point. I know this is not a convincing argument to assure a "true believer" that I am not becoming a "heathen", so I hope some of you can offer some suggestions.

[Justice and Mercy]

Umm... here's an easy one:

There's no reason to believe.

[Vladimir Lenin]

http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/welcome.php

[Justice and Mercy]

http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/welcome.php

website.

We don't know why the universe is how it is. I don't, and you don't. Oh well.

But saying it's God is an idiotic guess at best.

[Kiljan Arslan]

website.

We don't know why the universe is how it is. I don't, and you don't. Oh well.

But saying it's God is an idiotic guess at best.

LOL! Yeah you spent how much time there?

[Justice and Mercy]

LOL! Yeah you spent how much time there?

Long enough to figure out where the was.

Didn't take long. The was even more obvious than usual.

[Kiljan Arslan]

RIGHT (Sarcasm)

[Roman Knight]

http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/welcome.php

That's hilarious, it doesn't let you go against anything it says. This, children, is a prime example of proof by assertion. Make sure you copy it down because we're having a quiz on BS next week.

[Aetius]

http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/welcome.php

Lol, I just said that absolute moral laws do not exist, and its like "uh, screw you thare are natural laws, now either conform or leave the site."


And when its says there are no material evidence for moral laws, how about the police?

[Roman Knight]

Lol, I just said that absolute moral laws do not exist, and its like "uh, screw you thare are natural laws, now either conform or leave the site."


And when its says there are no material evidence for moral laws, how about the police?

same here

[Broken Pope]

http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/welcome.php

This is the most absurd nonsense I have ever seen on the interweb - and I have seen some crap.

'Do you believe in moral absolutes'? - No.

'Come on - do you believe in moral absolutes?' - No.

'Your child is being raped for fun can that ever be right..?' - Ummm... no?

'Haha! You believe in moral absolutes!!' - No I don't.

'God exists!' - Jings. That was a pretty clever show and switcheroo... Who knew that me thinking it was undesirable to have my child raped by a grinning clown would prove the existence of God?

Do I feel stupid now!

[Rich86]

What IF God does exist? That this life is barely a blink in the eyes of what eternal life is? That if we dont adhere, we burn in hell for eternity rather than Heaven?

And what IF God doesn't? Think of all the various beings mankind has invented over time - Zeus, Anubis, Artemis, Allah, Thor etc etc - there is no more reason to assume these 'Gods' exist than the Christian God exists. It is completely irrational to go around worrying about wether the sandman exists as there is no rational reason to believe he does - as such people do not give any serious thought about the sandman.

Thats only as much evidence for the Big Bang as it is evidence for God.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html

I'd also ask you to pop over to the Athenaeum section of this forum (found within the same 'Discussion and Debate' category) and repost what I've quoted you saying - I'm sure the people on there can provide you with better stuff than I can on this topic. I'm primarily a historian not a scientist

True but the idea that there could be an all powerful being that chose US out of all the many species of animal is amazing as well.

The idea that I could fly would be amazing also

Evolution is a constant development for the better.

No not always - evolution favours genes that will help us pass on our own genetic code - it's not so much about 'better.' I'd also be far more inclined to trust wikipedia than 'freedictionary.com'

Same could be said for people who are saying that all the energy and matter was "just there".

Yes except if I'm not mistake quantum physics allows for spontaneous creation of particles. Don't quote me on that as I'm not sure if I'd worded that right - as I said earlier check out the Athenaeum and ask there.

if I was religous, I'd say this life is a kind of test to see if we deserve to be in Heaven and we're basically on a "need to know basis"

Which would be very conveniant - sort of like a "I don't have to prove anything" card.

Some kind of unthinking cycle, rather than a thinking, breathing, sentient entity of some sort.

Like nature? I have no problem with that definition of 'God' - many scientists use that definition - and then mistakenyl get labelled religious.

we have the most advanced brains.

But I think that depends purely on what you want to use your brain for. Other creatures have brains that are better suited for other tasks than ours are.

I think religion is one of the most terrible things because religion can not only be easily corrupted/manipulated,

So why do you say it's a solution?

Nobodys perfect, I'm just throwing in my two cents.

Fair enough

evolution doesn't disprove the theory that there is a God.

Never said it did - it disproves creationism, and the bible's account of creation however - which then in turn casts doubt on the various religions etc.

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

[gambit]

And what IF God doesn't? Think of all the various beings mankind has invented over time - Zeus, Anubis, Artemis, Allah, Thor etc etc - there is no more reason to assume these 'Gods' exist than the Christian God exists. It is completely irrational to go around worrying about wether the sandman exists as there is no rational reason to believe he does - as such people do not give any serious thought about the sandman.

Very true, but there is still a rational thought. IF God does exist, it doesn't matter that he is usually a dickhead that can be proven wrong, he would still be an almighty God. Self-preservation is a very rational thought, and if all I had to do was obey 10 simple commandments for 70-80 years and in exchange I got heavenly bliss for eternity.. well thats not a very bad deal.

I, personally, would still live my life as it is. All I care about really is being a good person.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html

I'd also ask you to pop over to the Athenaeum section of this forum (found within the same 'Discussion and Debate' category) and repost what I've quoted you saying - I'm sure the people on there can provide you with better stuff than I can on this topic. I'm primarily a historian not a scientist

Well then, I stand corrected.

The idea that I could fly would be amazing also

It is.

No not always - evolution favours genes that will help us pass on our own genetic code - it's not so much about 'better.' I'd also be far more inclined to trust wikipedia than 'freedictionary.com'

True, true but it still also favours the genes that help you survive. It's a form of better.

Yes except if I'm not mistake quantum physics allows for spontaneous creation of particles. Don't quote me on that as I'm not sure if I'd worded that right - as I said earlier check out the Athenaeum and ask there.

I dunno about the spontaneous generation arguement. Since I know diddle-squat about quantum physics, I'll take your word for it.

Which would be very conveniant - sort of like a "I don't have to prove anything" card.

Essentially yes. If religious has been fabricated just and only by humans, then it would be the simplest trick in the book. Not having to really explain yourself until they cant even come back to argue is very convenient.

But if you were a God, you wouldn't have to care. I think it's pretty obvious if the Christian God (or other similar religous ideals of him) does exist, he's a bastard. Sure he granted us life, but he seems pretty willing to take it away on a whim, and on massive scales. I'm willing to accept God, but I'm not gonna believe he's a perfect indisputable God. I'm not even gonna begin to consider believing that.

He'd probably see it as his commands are very simple (most of them are) to follow, just do it and you'll get everything you need to know in Heaven.

Very convenient indeed.

Like nature? I have no problem with that definition of 'God' - many scientists use that definition - and then mistakenyl get labelled religious.

Yes, while I was thinking an entity seperate from nature (like natures nature, in the sense that it is above nature) but the same idea of what nature is.

But I think that depends purely on what you want to use your brain for. Other creatures have brains that are better suited for other tasks than ours are.

I guess but no other creatures are capable of such an extreme rational thought as humans. At least, none on this Earth. We only use 10% of our brains. Imagine if we had full control. I'm not saying we'd be like the little green aliens with super-high tech weaponry and psychic powers, but I bet we'd be alot more intelligent, capable to understand much more.

So why do you say it's a solution?

Because it's not being used in that bad of a way, at least not the major denominations. If the pope called a crusade nowadays, most people would laugh in his face, metaphorically. Terrorists in the Middle East? Using religion, but all of the Muslims I have met dont have ill-feelings towards the West at all. Nor a desire to go slaughtering infidels.

You cant really blame all of religion for the few corrupted "factions" that come out of religion and use it to drive the masses their way. Every group, every nation, every organization, everything has or has had some "faction" splinter off from it and just manipulate it for it's own needs.

Religion has its benefits as well. Some religious folks I meet are amongst the nicest people I have ever met. Now, I'm not saying atheists are evil people or anything. Just pointing out that the few who are smart enough to actually believe in it for a decent enough reason, rather than following it blindly without question, seem to be smart enough to understand it. The Bible, to me, is one big symbolic story on a decent way to live life, if you look at it in the right light so to speak. People who simply read it and understand it for it's message, can get a decent look into how to lead a "righteous" life. There are the people who twist the words to their own interpretation so they can win their little battles, and I say screw them.

Thats why I always liked science. You cant twist the theories to your own interpretation. You cant change the data. It's solid fact.

Never said it did - it disproves creationism, and the bible's account of creation however - which then in turn casts doubt on the various religions etc.

Yeah, that is quite true. Just always remember the Bible was still written by humans. If they made a mistake or just werent specific/general enough, I doubt God would come down with Ye Holy Eraser and fix it. He seems to let the humans dig their own grave, and instead of helping us up out of it, he shines a light our way and just stands there.

Ignoring hell is not a leap of faith to people who were not introduced to it at birth. The idea of hell and god is absurd to anyone who hears it after they develop the gift of rationality. I don’t believe in heaven and hell for one simple rational reason. What is heaven for you is hell for someone else and vice versa.

I never said ignoring hell but I think I know what you mean. Very true.

person who refuses to even consider the idea that god does not exist

To be fair he did say he didn't believe in God - think he was just trying to play devils advocate.

Exactly. I was raised in a christian home so I have a tendency to think on the side of the theists as well as my own, agnostic.

Also the OP is asking for arguments for and against religion. I will give them both as well as I can.

[Roman Knight]

Gambit you are one dedicated debater.

[Markas]

This is the most absurd nonsense I have ever seen on the interweb - and I have seen some crap.

'Do you believe in moral absolutes'? - No.

'Come on - do you believe in moral absolutes?' - No.

'Your child is being raped for fun can that ever be right..?' - Ummm... no?

'Haha! You believe in moral absolutes!!' - No I don't.

'God exists!' - Jings. That was a pretty clever show and switcheroo... Who knew that me thinking it was undesirable to have my child raped by a grinning clown would prove the existence of God?

Do I feel stupid now!

Yeah I had arguments like that in University with my god-bothering housemates. I do not believe in moral absolutes, as throughout history morality has been completely differant for differant cultures. If you went back 500 years and asked an Aztec warrior if it was moral to capture, drug and tear people's hearts out on the top of a temple he would likely say yes, given that if he didn't the sun would not rise the next day and it would be the end for everyone. Usually people are refering to Christian morality to which I would say 'If your child was dying and needed a blood-transfusion, would you consent to save them?' They said yes, of course. Of course they usually realised quickly I was refering to a sect of Christians called the Jehovah's witnesses and I pointed out there were no moral absolutes within christianity either.

[gambit]

Theres no real reason to keep argueing for or against religion. It all boils down to one thing.

WE DO NOT KNOW!

You can claim you see in pitch black darkness, but you cannot.
You can claim you can flap your arms really fast and fly but you cannot.
You can claim that you know God exists (or doesn't) but you do not.

Argueing faith is like playing pool with a tennis racket. Pointless, silly and hilarious to watch.

[Vladimir Lenin]

Theres no real reason to keep argueing for or against religion. It all boils down to one thing.

WE DO NOT KNOW!

You can claim you see in pitch black darkness, but you cannot.
You can claim you can flap your arms really fast and fly but you cannot.
You can claim that you know God exists (or doesn't) but you do not.

Argueing faith is like playing pool with a tennis racket. Pointless, silly and hilarious to watch.

Agreed. To believe in God is a matter of faith, to disbelieve in God is equally a matter of faith.

[Justice and Mercy]

Agreed. To believe in God is a matter of faith, to disbelieve in God is equally a matter of faith.

No, to believe in God is a matter of faith, to not believe in God is a matter of not believing something until you have a reason to.

Big difference.

[gambit]

No, to believe in God is a matter of faith, to not believe in God is a matter of not believing something until you have a reason to.

Big difference.

All a matter of perspective. I was raised in a christian home, so when lots of 'evidence' about evolution came about and other factors like my friends turning atheist, I decided to continue believing in God until I saw reason to believe otherwise.

I did eventually, but that was my choice.

[Graf Hakenfels]

The argument isn't wether a god exists or which religion is wrong/right. I was just looking for other people's experiences with explaining their non-religiousness to a religious friend. I posted my opinion on religion so you could see where I'm coming from. Maybe I need to change the title?

Here's the question again:

My reason for not being religious is that I don't feel like I need religion. I know this is not a convincing argument to assure a "true believer" that I am not becoming a "heathen", so I hope some of you can offer some suggestions.

I already have an opinion concerning religion, but what can I say to alleviate his concern about me being "damned"?
I dont want to accept that there is nothing I can say...

@Gambit
Do you have any personal experiences confronting religious friends/family members with your views?