complaint: too many useless units

[Five_of_Swords]

Take the english heavy billmen. They are no bargain compared to the armored swordsmen, they are availible later, and there is no possible situation where you could possibly prefer using heavy billmen rather than armored swordsmen. Dont beleive me? test it yourself. Why do heavy billmen exist?

All heavy cavalry is the same. France is touted to have the 'finest cavalry in the west' but english knights are, with equal numbers, the exact equals of french lancers. Dont believe me? test it youself. Same with norman knights and everything else with charge bonus 8. Why do lancers exist?

Spearmen are not the solution to cavalry. the solution to cavalry is, absurdly, putting units in loose formation and making them run around when the cavalry charges...(?)

there are many other absurdities liek this...when would you ever use sergeant spearmen rather than armored spearmen, they have equal upkeep cost...russian dzudima or you spell it, strictly inferior to boyar sons. italian castle produced spearmen.....why?? dismounted men at arms or broken lances vs dismounted feudal knights...no reason to prefer one over the other totally redundant. Why would one ever use sword and blucker men rather than dismounted foot knights? Why are zwei handers and dismounted gothic knights so amazingly expensive in a custom battle game when they are so totally inferior to dismounted feudal knights? why would u ever pay the amazing cost of gothic knights when they are never superior to imperial knights? (indeed the imperial knight bonus vs armor often make them superior to gothic knights) there are many other absurtities like this which im sure im jsut not thinkign of right now.

It was the same in rome total war but that was ok because i could just go in the text editor and change stats around to make things more interesting (which was very easy to do and it blows my mind that the ppl who make the game find this hard or something) but i dont know how to do this in mtw2 and its just annoying (compounded with the amazingly retarded pathing and AI stuff). Does anyone know how i can do this in this game?
Also another topic, does anyone know how to help AI not be really, really amazingly stupid with when they decide to attack you in the campaign and stuff (like, i can have a town garrisoned with 1 spear militia and an enemy army of 1500 men right next to it dont attack, instead they prefer to attack my 1500 army elsewhere with 1 unit of polish nobles...)

[Wheelchair]

Spearmen are not the solution to cavalry. the solution to cavalry is, absurdly, putting units in loose formation and making them run around when the cavalry charges...(?)

Spearmen have a very good bonus vs Cavalry. If you use your little tactic with spearmen it'll work better then with another nonspear unit.

italian castle produced spearmen.....why??

You can upgrade their armor better then the other Militia.

dismounted men at arms or broken lances vs dismounted feudal knights...no reason to prefer one over the other totally redundant.

Pretty sure the Upkeep is different.

Why would one ever use sword and blucker men rather than dismounted foot knights?

Again, upkeep.

Why are zwei handers and dismounted gothic knights so amazingly expensive in a custom battle game when they are so totally inferior to dismounted feudal knights? why would u ever pay the amazing cost of gothic knights when they are never superior to imperial knights?

Theres to many variables to take into consideration such as attack speed and such, which are not listed in the quick reference.

Also another topic, does anyone know how to help AI not be really, really amazingly stupid with when they decide to attack you in the campaign and stuff (like, i can have a town garrisoned with 1 spear militia and an enemy army of 1500 men right next to it dont attack, instead they prefer to attack my 1500 army elsewhere with 1 unit of polish nobles...)

Download a mod.

Welcome to TWC

[Five_of_Swords]

well these upkeep consideration u mention wheelchair actually are opposite of what you would expect. For example, italian spear militia are simply better than fully upgraded italian castle made spearmen but their upkeep is much less. in the campaign the zwei handers have a reasonable upkeep that could make you actually want to use them because they are basically good enough. (But these varialbes you are speaking of liek attack speed, whatever it means, it results in dismounted feudal knights completely pwning dismounted gothic knights. Its pretty annoying to wait forever to get gothic knights and find out that, although they are impressively expensive, they suck compared to earlier units haha. It even seems just simply better to keep your old, more experienced mailed knights.) But in the custom battle there is nothing the gothic knights can do that dismounted feudal knights cant do better.
Its fairly easy to see, based on absurd imbalances, what the best army is. an all mailed knight army is going to totally destroy anything that the AI produces for a roughly similar cost in recruit and upkeep (4 mailed knights controlled with an ounce of common sense will easy destroy an army of 10 Ai controlled armored spearmen.) In fact, it will destroy most armies that are 4 or more times the cost in recruit and upkeep. And quickly, which is a nice bonus. Did the ppl who made this game bother to have beta testers?

Its so funny, playing france, and all these choices for cavalry u have, lancers, noble knights, chivilric knights, feudal knights, mailed knights, haha. You just simply would expect them to be noticably different. They are not. The charge bonus for the top 3 can make a tiny, tiny noticable difference against infantry but thats all. I just want a reason to have a different unit, is that too much to ask? argh

And its funny because for some reason the desingers did fine with byzantine. I think the dismounted lankyton are somewhat uninteresting because they simply arent enough better than byzantine infantry and are inferior to the varagnian guard. But for the most part, all byzantine units perform their role well and reliably so you can genuinely diversify your army without thinking you are sacrificing something for realism hahaha. If they could do ok with byzantine then why couldnt the designers get anything right with any of the other factions?

[Surgeon]

It's not so much useless units I find irking as the mirrored city-castle units. English Archer Militia = Peasant Archers. Why not let England recruit Peasant Archers in both cities and castles? Why make a new, separate unit for it?

A few notes however...

Take the english heavy billmen. They are no bargain compared to the armored swordsmen, they are availible later, and there is no possible situation where you could possibly prefer using heavy billmen rather than armored swordsmen. Dont beleive me? test it yourself. Why do heavy billmen exist?

Billmen can waste cavalry as if it's their job.

Spearmen are not the solution to cavalry. the solution to cavalry is, absurdly, putting units in loose formation and making them run around when the cavalry charges...(?)

Spearmen are going to take less casualties either way. If you're facing a combined cavalry-infantry charge then you don't want your guys losing formation before the hurricane hits, but if you don't use spearmen you're going to be decimated by the cavalry.

why would u ever pay the amazing cost of gothic knights when they are never superior to imperial knights? (indeed the imperial knight bonus vs armor often make them superior to gothic knights)

Yes they are superior. Gothic Knights also have an armor piercing attack, and a stronger one at that.

It was the same in rome total war but that was ok because i could just go in the text editor and change stats around to make things more interesting (which was very easy to do and it blows my mind that the ppl who make the game find this hard or something) but i dont know how to do this in mtw2 and its just annoying (compounded with the amazingly retarded pathing and AI stuff). Does anyone know how i can do this in this game?

I think you need to unpack the game first. There will be a file in your data directory called export_descr_units. Use it to alter unit stats.

[D.B. Cooper]

Another naysayer lamenting how bad Med2 is compared to Rome. Jeez...

[Five_of_Swords]

Thanks surgeon i just dunno what unpacking means but thats a clue int he right direction i guess heh. Also billmen are inferior against cavalry to armored swordsmen, even tho in the text it pretends they are not. heavy billmen will lose to feudal knights killing an average of 17. armored swordsmen might only lose if the knights back up and recharge succesfully a lot and there will be under 10 knights left in this case. I dunt know why the description says what it says but its misleading, if u actually test it u will see.

Ar - huh?

[Point Blank]

Try Stainless Steel mod + Real Recruitment/Real Combat for a complete overhaul of vanilla combat system. Download SSTC (stainless steel total combat first) then RR/RC. Here is link to latest update:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...03#post3713103

REAL RECRUITMENT 1.2 / REAL COMBAT 1.7 BETA

Real Recruitment ('RR') is an attempt to more accurately simulate the dynamics of recruiting, retention and training during the medieval period covered by the M2TW game. There is a guide included in the download. RR includes Real Combat.

Real Combat ('RC') is an attempt to create a more realistic M2TW combat experience via the modification of a number of crucial unit stats for all units, using a consistent and detailed framework. A guide is included in the download.

Includes JaM's 1400 campaign.

RR 1.2 changes:
-Much improved event code to better model the changes in army compositions from High Era onwards up to early 1600's

• more realistic introduction of new weapons such as pikes, polearms, corned powder firearms, wheelocks etc
• reduction in importance of Feudal System, availability of Feudal units, free upkeep etc as time progresses, though this effect varies by faction
• increase in professional men-at-arms until Late Professional units become more dominant

-AOR for Locals and Early Professionals

• Locals are available to any faction that controls the region, but more to the original owning faction. It will take some time for new factions to be able to recruit these units, and their availability is reduced
• Early Professionals are fully available to the original faction in their original regions, and also in those regions originally owned by factions that can also recruit those units; elsewhere their availability is reduced

-Generally improved RR code for most factions
-High-level barracks has limited ability to upgrade armor, as for a lower-level smith. This particularly helps the AI
-The following units are added:

• Armored Pikemen
• Swiss Armored Pikemen
• Armored Tercio Pikemen
• Corned-Powder Arquebusiers
• Pavise-shield Handgunners
• Halberd Men-at-Arms
• Swiss Halberdiers
• generic Archers (available to most factions in early era)
• Men-at-Arms, mounted and foot
• Mounted Arquebusiers
• Soldatos Reformados Arquebusiers
• Black Band Arquebusiers
• Janissary Arquebusiers
• Flintlock Musketeers
• Noble Knights
• Arbalest Militia

-The following units are available to many more factions:

• Demi Lancers
• Gendarmes
• Reiters (Pistoliers)
• Pike Militia
• Halberd Militia
• Italian MAA
• Arquebusiers
• Musketeers
• Pikemen

-Free unit slots available
-Updated mercenary file
-Improved and Advanced Metallurgy available to some factions, allowing extra armor upgrades
-Militia upkeep cost increased
-Militia replacement rates reduced
-Plus other fixes and updates

RC 1.7 changes:
-Addition of 'Exceptional' unit quality class. Complete list is: Exceptional>Elite>Superior>Average>Militia>Peasant Militia>Peasant
-Missile units now melee at 2 levels less, rather than 1 level
-Cavalry mounted attack bonus and defense penalty both increased
-Exceptional, Elite and Superior units have received slight attack boost relative to other units
-Overall clearer distinctions between melee and missile, foot and mounted and different quality level units
-Heavy foot units now move more slowly than lighter units
-Increasing armor from Heavy Mail to Plate+Mail now counts as 2 armor upgrades, ie Plate+Mail and better armor now more effective than before. Upgrading from Heavy Mail to Plate+Mail will show as 2 upgrades (ie a silver shield).
-Updated shields stats to better model their effect versus missiles, and their effect on heat/fatigue
-Mail armor less effective versus missile weapons than in melee, but reduced heat penalty compared to other metal armors
-Shieldless 1H weapon units get +1 attack bonus and attack faster
-Updated modelling of spear units. As well as fighting in closer formation, spears now more effective versus infantry and less versus cavalry
-Spears attack slightly more slowly
-Pikes reduced in melee effect versus cavalry. While pikes are still by far the best versus a cavalry charge, polearms are the best killer of cavalry (especially armored cavalry) in melee
-Some reduction in cavalry mass values
-Cavalry lance attack values slightly reduced
-Cavalry sword charge bonus slightly reduced
-Overall 'rock-paper-scissors' effect in tactical combat is blurred
-Improved cohesion
-Further updating of mental stats for many units, in particular militia and some 'individual-combat' oriented units (eg knights) employ less tidy formations
-Reiter (pistolier) now uses sword
-Later-appearing, more advanced units are more likely to be recruited than early units if both are available at the same time
-Updating of all missile accuracies/velocities/ballistics, to reflect heavier 'war arrow' loads
-Horse archer arrows are faster but lighter
-Lower quality bow users shoot with slightly lower velocity
-Updating of most missile accuracy values. In general, bows>=crossbows>muskets>arquebus>handgun>=javelin; however, at lower skill levels, crossbows are better than bows
-Bows attack reduced. Combined with armor model changes above, bows now have more difficulty handling opponents in armor better than Heavy Mail
-More variety in rate of fire between heavy and light firearms
-Armor Piercing attribute removed from all AP missile weapons and attack value increased, for greater effect versus light armor, and reduced effect versus heavy armor
-Bows divided into 'Missile' and 'Skirmish' types, with their own updated animations

• 'Missile' units shoot faster but with less accuracy to a greater range
• 'Skirmish' units shoot more slowly but with better accuracy, over direct sights (ie a shorter range)

-Horse archers shoot faster. HA are also divided into 'Skirmish' and 'Missile' types. Skirmish HA are typically lighter and faster units
-Pikes better balanced. Pike formations improved. Better-quality pike units hold their formations better
-Better-quality pike units have more 'aggressive' animation set
-Phalanx polearms better balanced
-Poleaxe units get their own animation class. Attacks similar to 2H axe + some halberd, defends as halberd
-2H axe units use 2H axe animations again, rather than 2H sword
-Some attack animations added to 2H axe class
-Completely re-working (WIP) and significantly raised heat penalty values. Managing unit stamina is now an important consideration
-Removal of exploding cannon ammunition
-Reduction in area of effect of artillery ammunition vs units
-Missile weapons and gunpowder artillery shoot better at close range
-2H axe more effective versus cavalry
-More eastern and middle eastern units armed with 'light sword', with lighter damage, faster attack time and less heat penalty due to light weight
-Horse armor effect reduced
-Cavalry more vulnerable to missile weapons
-Costs and training times for firearms units reduced to reflect ease of training
-Archer training costs increased to reflect training duration
-Early bombard fires stone balls which shatter on impact; it is best used versus walls rather than units, though retains the grapeshot option
-Non-gunpowder siege artillery less accurate versus units
-Most eastern cavalry units now use 'Eastern Horse' (lighter but more agile) rather than heavy horse. Eastern Armored horse also lightened
-Many western light and medium cavalry units now use 'Medium Horse' (lighter and cheaper)
-Very slight reduction in mass values for some ME foot units
-Some unit names slightly changed to add historical flavor

[Five_of_Swords]

wow thanks that stainless steel mod looks very neat and interesting and i will check it out.
I figured out how to unpack and i reworked a lot of the units. Its not that difficult to change their stats to make everythign actually work recruiting for some reason. For example, to prevent noble knights and lancers from just being identical to chiviliric knights and not really much better than mailed knights, I gave lancers a whopping +11 charge, a higher armor bonus, but reduced their secondary attack and removed their stamina bonus as well as increasing their woods penalty. Noble knights i increased their secondary attack, increased their primary attack slightly (but still quite inferior to lancers), increased their armor but dropped their base morale by 2. Chivilric knights received an increase in their morale and their defense skill (to make them actually quite better than mailed knights)...So now there is a real reason to recruit new heavy cavalry as france. tried similar things with all the other factions, and it was quite simple for all but poland-they have so many different heavy cavalry its difficult to find good specialized roles for them all. Honestly i dont understand why the game designers couldnt do this, after testing it a little i think its fairly well balanced now.

[KoS]

In my opinion, the most useless unit is the Peasant Archers.

[Pfundner]

zzzzzz, go moan somewhere else

if you dont like the game, dont play it

dont bug us with ur complaints, we obviously dont mind those things you mentioned or else we wouldn't be palying the game

[Five_of_Swords]

Pfunder, its a great game, it just isnt finished...Im trying to work positively to finish it, im not moaning.

[Tsarevna]

zzzzzz, go moan somewhere else

if you dont like the game, dont play it

dont bug us with ur complaints, we obviously dont mind those things you mentioned or else we wouldn't be palying the game

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Troll comment if I ever heard one.

Real advice would be, if you don't like the game, mod it!



I'm a 20-something D grade average high-school only educated blond chick, and I learned how to mod the game. It's easy, just browse the mod workshop forum, and start reading the tutorials.

You don't need graphic arts skills, the main job modders do is look at text files that list units. You go to the unit you want to modify, see that it is +1 against cavalry, and if you feel it's too weak, you change it to +3!

If you want a faction to have the ability to build a structure that say, only another faction gets, you look in the appropriate text file then copy/paste the information about that structure into the faction you wish to have it.

You can make France build Hassashin's Guilds like Egypt, you can make England recruit camel riflemen! You can do almost anything you want.

[Internazionale]

Great post Point Blank! +rep. If it wasn't for this thread I would have torn my hair off

[Lysimachus]

Pfundner, don't chat crap. I am sick of those type of comments. Don't whine? That's pathetic. Five_of_Swords is simply questioning the point of why some units are in the game. That, in my opinion is perfectly fine. Now, I need to go and read his posts because the inability to use capital letters and commas just put me off, but the point is the things you say is exactly what drives people away; and it's just immature. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but i'm being blunt and speaking my mind. I hope you're not naive enough to make it neccessary to twist the truth.

Now, to the OP. I believe you just have to use the weaker units against a decent target. For example, using standard billmen against say a General's Bodyguard and they'll be obliterated. Use them against some weaker unit like Mailed Knights may yield a better result. I find Peasant Archers useful because they allow a nation to fortify it's walls and rain a bit of hell on the enemy for a cheap price. Of course, the amount of damage they cause is limited because of their rather low missile attack value but in mass they are strong and can cause a rout with the use of flaming arrows.

[Toshi-sama]

Hey, I thought alot of units were worthless at the start but they all have their own jobs. For instance, you would use dismounted mailed/feudal/chivalric knights for the 'front line' infantry to fight with the main force, not an astounding attack rating but great defense. Holding troops. Now you have your gothic knights, norse axemen, english knights, the soldiers that are the flankers. They have better offense than defense. Have those guys either stay behind your front line and wait until the front tires, then attack with your assault troops and they will butcher your enemy. Probably sole flaming arrows can make them rout. Of course have spearmen at the sides to make sure you don't get your tough soldiers killed by those pesky cavalry lances.

I still haven't found a use for men at arms though, do they count as militia? Cheaper but they aren't the best and I want the best for my armies. I use them as garrison troops sometimes but havent found a use for 'em. Those are the only troops I haven't really found a use for.

Also armor piercing troops like harrenbruder pwn chivalric knights with half losses.

[Drox]

I would just like to mention that if you go do some custom battles and try diffrent scenarios with diffrent units you will find that pretty much every unit fits into a rock paper scissor type format. Sure some units fit better than others but for the most part things seem to work as they are intended. I would also just like to mention the Armord swordsmen are not the god of all infantry like I see many people saying. Everyone always puts down 2h sword/axe units but the truth of the matter is that if you take a unit of armored swords vs a unit of equaly equiped 2h weapon users the armored swords get stomped on.

[Sorkenlol]

You can always edit the units in export_descr_unit in your Data folder. For example, I gave heavy billmen a +6 bonus to cavalry instead of 2, and some more armor (they do wear almost full plate so they deserve good armor.) and now they're just as good as any feudal knight or spearman.

[Silent Assassin]

I would also add the ScotsGuard that you get late in the game and they are praticly useless at the time that they are available

[Lysimachus]

I swear they're actually stronger than some firearm units. Also, they don't have to shift ranks, and they sort of serve a dual purpose. They can be used as good light infantry.

[Silent Assassin]

I swear they're actually stronger than some firearm units. Also, they don't have to shift ranks, and they sort of serve a dual purpose. They can be used as good light infantry.

You are right but still I would have liked or more enjoyed them if we could have the chance to recruit them earlier.

One more thing I know that a mod as it but why didn't they gave this unit to actually the ones that has used them the most (Scotland)