Everything about Kosovo and Serbia Part 4

[Pontifex Maximus]

mk 1: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=147199
mk 2: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=154720

Everything about Kosovo and Serbia 3

1. No Posting in other languages

2. No flaming or off topic posting

3. Do not promote ethnic cleansings or other illegal activities

[Scar Face]

To the pro Kosovo crowd out there:

1) Do you recognize the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as being legitimate? If not, why the double standards?

2) Would you be ok if a large immigrant population settled in what was, historically, the very essence of your people and Culture, and seeked greater autonomy? How would you react in such circumstances? Would you ever accept their independence, regardless of what transpired in the chaos?

[Burnum]

[quote=Scar Face;3709675]To the pro Kosovo crowd out there:

1) Do you recognize the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as being legitimate? [quote]

I am all for self-determination, but a population of 70'000 is not a viable state. They seek to be annexed by Russia, that's not declaration of independence.

If not, why the double standards?

Kosovo does not seek to be Annexed by Albania. Russia's actions are

2) Would you be ok if a large immigrant population settled in what was, historically, the very essence of your people and Culture, and seeked greater autonomy?

1) It happens all the time. The Northern Ireland, Israel, Australia, Kurdistan and Tibet are all examples. Besides, Albanians have been their for hundreds of years. You could hardly call the Albanians immigrants.

2) Serbia's claim about modern Kosovo are largely imaginary. Demographics and culture change over hundreds of years.

How would you react in such circumstances?

Lobbyists. If you don't commit any severe war crimes and start lobbying all the major countries you'll get support from them. That's why Serbia lost and the KLA won, because the KLA understood this.

Georgia, may have lost militarily but won in the end because no major countries, besides russia

Would you ever accept their independence, regardless of what transpired in the chaos?

Yes, it does no good holding a grudge. The Serbs in Kosovo have every right to participate in the Democratic process and if they chose not too, it only hurts them.

Anyway the pro Kossovo people belong to the following categories:

a)Albanians (duh)

b)People that watch western media only and believe that all Serbs are evil butchers while the rest were innocent sheep

c)People that believe that if the majority of a region wants it, it should get independence (without caring about history of regions or how majorities were established)

d) people who recognize that Kosovo will never be apart of Serbia because of the Majority want Independence and the actions of the Serbian governments have shown that intergration with Serbia is impossible.

[Scar Face]

I am all for self-determination, but a population of 70'000 is not a viable state. They seek to be annexed by Russia, that's not declaration of independence.

So Kosovo, a state with rampant unemployment, a corrupt Government, hell bent on pushing the Serbs out, are a viable, legitimate state in your mind?

Kosovo does not seek to be Annexed by Albania.

No, they don't seek to be annexed by Albania, but much like the Albanians in FYROM, they will continue to spread from one nation to the next, raping the land who those who came before them died to defend.

1) It happens all the time. The Northern Ireland, Israel, Australia, Kurdistan and Tibet are all examples. Besides, Albanians have been their for hundreds of years. You could hardly call the Albanians immigrants.

The Serbians inhabited Kosovo long before the Albanians, of course they are foreigners, of course they are usurpers. Why would I not call a thief a thief?

2) Serbia's claim about modern Kosovo are largely imaginary. Demographics and culture change over hundreds of years.

So you are suppose to bend over and accept the end of your people? Their claims are not imaginary, they are very much substantive, they are looking out for their people- just as the Albanians look out for their people, as they spread from state to state, demanding independence.

[Burnum]

So Kosovo, a state with rampant unemployment,

Well they did just come out of a war, they do need time to fix their economy.

a corrupt Government,

This source says that Corruption is at the same level the other regions in former Yugoslavia.

hell bent on pushing the Serbs out, are a viable, legitimate state in your mind?

Please, tell me if the government of Kosovo is "hellbent" on ethnically cleansing Serbs why do they reserve 10 seats in the Assembly of Kosovo for Serbs?

No, they don't seek to be annexed by Albania, but much like the Albanians in FYROM, they will continue to spread from one nation to the next, raping the land who those who came before them died to defend.

Racist Conspiracy theories. It doesn't matter if they're about Jews or Albanians, they all sound the same.

The Serbians inhabited Kosovo long before the Albanians, of course they are foreigners, of course they are usurpers. Why would I not call a thief a thief?

Aren't you a white Canadian? Doesn't that make you a thief?

So you are suppose to bend over and accept the end of your people?

This not the end of Serbian people, it's irrational to think so.

Their claims are not imaginary, they are very much substantive.

They barely make up 4% of the total population.

That would be c)

They support the majority.

It's called democracy for a reason, you know.

[Grof]

Lobbyists. If you don't commit any severe war crimes and start lobbying all the major countries you'll get support from them. That's why Serbia lost and the KLA won, because the KLA understood this.

are you in kidding me. since the end of the NATO campaign the KLA has committed genocide on the Serbian population but you don't hear about that because the west doesn't report on that. Do you know how manny Serbs had to leave because if they stayed they would have been killed. Do you know how manny serbian churches and monasteries have been destroyed since 99.

No you dont know about any of that. Do you know that there are daily attacks on the Serbian population in Kosovo.

[iliria]

To the pro Kosovo crowd out there:

1) Do you recognize the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as being legitimate? If not, why the double standards?

the funniest and the most ignorant comment forever...kosovo&abkhazia?? where do they look the same??

if Albania were going to invade kosovo and than albanians in kosovo were going to declare indep. than u can compare kosovo and separatist regions of Georgia...according to the population...kosovo have an population near 2.5 milion habitants,..which 95% of them are albanians....and removing autonomy to an province with ethnicaly population with albanians was not an good idea....
how much take both ossetia and abkhazia in Georgian population?? 2 or 3 %??

it was old/new russian chauvinist politic against Georgia and is funny to make paralel things with kosovo.

[Akrotatos]

Thanks Pontifex, the thread really needed a reset.

Anyway the pro Kossovo people belong to the following categories:

a)Albanians (duh)

b)People that watch western media only and believe that all Serbs are evil butchers while the rest were innocent sheep

c)People that believe that if the majority of a region wants it, it should get independence (without caring about history of regions or how majorities were established)

[Grof]

Thanks Pontifex, the thread really needed a reset.

Anyway the pro Kossovo people belong to the following categories:

a)Albanians (duh)

b)People that watch western media only and believe that all Serbs are evil butchers while the rest were innocent sheep

c)People that believe that if the majority of a region wants it, it should get independence (without caring about history of regions or how majorities were established)

you forgot one major thing.

people that don't care about international laws or the sovereignty of a country.

[Akrotatos]

) people who recognize that Kosovo will never be apart of Serbia because of the Majority want Independence and the actions of the Serbian governments have shown that intergration with Serbia is impossible.

That would be c)

They support the majority.

[eizo]

3. Do not promote ethnic cleansings or other illegal activities

Huh this is kinda funny promoting idea of "Kosova" is same as promoting ethnic cleansing hell you can't say concentration camp Dahau was a nice place but i don't promote killing people ...
Kosovo today under shiptar occupation is almost ethnic pure as all non-albanians were killed or forced out the only part that still holds all other nations is the North where Serbs have weapons and shiptar warlords can't enforce "self-determination"

[Heinz Guderian]

Huh this is kinda funny promoting idea of "Kosova" is same as promoting ethnic cleansing hell you can't say concentration camp Dahau was a nice place but i don't promote killing people ...
Kosovo today under shiptar occupation is almost ethnic pure as all non-albanians were killed or forced out the only part that still holds all other nations is the North where Serbs have weapons and shiptar warlords can't enforce "self-determination"

So..i'm gonna go ahead and guess that "shiptar" is a deragatory phrase for Albanians?

[clandestino]

So..i'm gonna go ahead and guess that "shiptar" is a deragatory phrase for Albanians?

No Shiptar is Albanian name for Albanians, they use it themselfe.

2) Serbia's claim about modern Kosovo are largely imaginary. Demographics and culture change over hundreds of years.

You call legal and recognized possesion of territory for almost 100 years imaginary?

Please, tell me if the government of Kosovo is "hellbent" on ethnically cleansing Serbs why do they reserve 10 seats in the Assembly of Kosovo for Serbs?

Cause probably they are counting on that only 10 Serbs will remain on Kosovo when they are done, and please what 10 seats in parliament means when ever since the 1999. Albanians killed alomost 2000 Serbs in Kosovo and expelled more then 200,000 and all that in front of the eyes of UN mission and NATO troops?

They barely make up 4% of the total population.

Thanks to the ethnic cleansing...

[Burnum]

You call legal and recognized possesion of territory for almost 100 years imaginary?

I was unaware that communist Yugoslavia was wholly comprised of Serbia and Serbs haven't been the Majority ethnic group for over 100 years.

[QUOTE]Cause probably they are counting on that only 10 Serbs will remain on Kosovo when they are done [QUOTE]

Such a claim is ridiculous, all evidence points to opposite.

Cause probably they are counting on that only 10 Serbs will remain on Kosovo when they are done, and please what 10 seats in parliament means when ever since the 1999. Albanians killed alomost 2000 Serbs in Kosovo and expelled more then 200,000 and all that in front of the eyes of UN mission and NATO troops?

Serbia killed 13,000 Albanians and expelled over 800'000 ethnic Albanians.

Thanks to the ethnic cleansing...

Actually it can be attributed to a gradually diminishing Serbian population and an increase Albanian birthrates.

[4th Regiment]

Good post clandestino, you were faster , just to clear up few more things

and expelled over 800'000 ethnic Albanians.

Only AFTER NATO campaign started, refugees fled the province, because of the war/bombing, so it was not excuse for NATO aggression but result of it. Even bigger % of non Albanians fled to central Serbia during NATO "Merciful angel" campaign. ALL Albanians returned within days after war was over, while Serbs never returned and rest fled after KLA drug mafia took power in Kosovo.


Burnum, as far as I can see you are Muslim, right? Do, you know that Albanians cleansed not only Serbs but all other non Albanians – Turks(there are some Turks here to testify that), Slavic Muslims and more than 100k Gypsies who were all 100% Muslims -since there is not afro Americans in Serbia, Gypsies were only "colored" people there, but no body rang the Nazi bell.

[clandestino]

I was unaware that communist Yugoslavia was wholly comprised of Serbia and Serbs haven't been the Majority ethnic group for over 100 years.

No, but Kosovo was ( and still is ) province of Serbia.

Serbia killed 13,000 Albanians and expelled over 800'000 ethnic Albanians.

It's more like 2150 dead overal, 850 suposed to be victims of war crime, and that's all during the war against KLA terrorists and NATO, ethnical cleansing of Serbs is taking place in ''peace''.

Earlier however, KFOR sources told Agence France Presse that of the 2,150 bodies that had been discovered up until July 1999, about 850 were thought to be victims of war crimes.[47]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_..._ground_forces

Actually it can be attributed to a gradually diminishing Serbian population and an increase Albanian birthrates.

And to 219,000 expelled and forcefully removed Serbs:

However, the campaign of violence forced 200,000 Serbs from Kosovo.[60]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_..._ground_forces

Such a claim is ridiculous, all evidence points to opposite.

So the fact that Albanians in Kosovo killed almost 2000 Serbs, expelled more then 200,000 ,burned some 5000 Serbian houses,destroyed more then Serbian 120 churches and monasteries in period of 1999-2008 to you is evidence that Albanians are not trying to ethnicaly cleanse Serbs?

[clandestino]

Tell me about that Regiment, my neighborhood is full of refugees from Kosovo, mainly Gypsies and Slavic Muslims ( Goranci ) as well as numerous ethnic Albanians.

[Yuri Orlov]

Slavic Muslims

Nice of you to care about us "slavic muslims" for a change
It makes me feel all warm...

Anyways, this is the 4th thread, why do you all bother, we both know that This will degenerate into history lessons about how either side is "right".
I think life sucks for most poeple in kosovo, be they albanians.. serbs...
I don't see what the whole argument is about, as far as I can see it, before 1999 albanians are treated like crap, killed etc etc... after 1999 serbs are treated like crap killed, well not just serbs, but any non-albanians...

[clandestino]

Albanians weren't treated like crap before 1999. nor killed, and of course that I care about Slavic Muslims ( Goranci ), my grammar school history teacher is Goranac and one of my close friends is Goranac also, not that it's important, I would care about harassment of Goranci even if I didn't know any of them personaly.

[Yuri Orlov]

Albanians weren't treated like crap before 1999. nor killed, and of course that I care about Slavic Muslims ( Goranci ), my grammar school history teacher is Goranac and one of my close friends is Goranac also, not that it's important, I would care about harassment of Goranci even if I didn't know any of them personaly.

I said it to 4th reggiment not to you, since the term also cover an other group of people that he is not to fond of...

Albanians were treated like crap even during Yugoslavia, Kosovo wasnt like the rest of Yugoslavia, it was the ...

what NATO did was swap one oppressor for the other, before there were albanian refugees here, now there are tons of kosovo serbs and slavic muslims wanting to get inn, for some reason they closed the borders after kosovo declared independance, something thats strange as I doubt
non - albanians are safer becouse of that, but.. oh well...