A Curious Thing in The Last Words of Jesus...

[IronBlood]

As Jesus the Nazarene was slowing dieing on the Cross, the one that he had carried from Jerusalem to Golgotha (Place of the Skull) he cried out 7 last words before breathing his last. The fourth time he cried out he shouted "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" (My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?)

This always stood out as a bit curious to me. Why would God himself or his "incarnate" say this? Aren't they the inseparable? Surely they can't abandon/forsake themselves, right?

From another view point, ff Jesus was just a man. He was expecting God to save him from the cross, when he put his "spirit" into the hands of God (meaning he let his fate up to God) also points to this.

Your thoughts?

[The Good]

I've found this a curious thing about Jesus too, but I think it furthur represents Christ's human nature. According to most Christian theologians, Jesus Christ is 100% God as well as 100% man. Now, that doesn't mean Jesus is 200% of anything, but it's really supposed to mean that he is just as divine as he is human.

[Kurogane]

It is believed that Jesus quoted Psalm 22 of the bible. Psalm 22 clearly prophecies Jesus' death. it was written one thousand years before his coming.

[B]1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel. [a]

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [c] my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save [d] me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you [e] will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.

Everything that is in this psalm happened in that cross and the rest is to come, like the last verses, which are and will be.

God made himself man, that meant that God had to become a sinner, he would be tempted to sin, but he didn't, in the garden of gethsemane, Jesus cries out for God to save him from his death that knows he had to go through in order to save us.

[hellas1]

@IronBlood,

Numbers in the Bible: Both "Old" and "New" testaments almost ALWAYS have a hidden meaning which points to something, it is usually a spiritual state of being or expression of some sorts.

This hidden numerical meaning is called Gematria. It was used in the Bible and was know by Jews thousands of years ago. Even in Pompeii when archaeologists uncovered an ash and debris covered wall an inscription wrote:
"My love is her's and her's alone and her number is 734" (I believe, research it.)

The Baal HaTurim Chumash, written by Baal HaTurim discusses acrostics as well as number patterns. These number patterns are NOT the ELS or "Bible Code" but different in nature as the Hebrew alphabet's letters equal numbers just as Greek letters equal numbers also.

Ex. 40:
Rained during Noah's flood
Israel wandering in the wilderness
Moses died at 120 (40 in Egypt, 40 tending sheep/livestock, 40 w/the children of Israel)
Moses on top of Mt. Sinai
Elijah on top of Mt. Horeb
Jesus tempted by the Devil

70:
Nations mentioned in Genesis as the descendants of Shem, Ham & Japheth
70 elders of Israel
70 bulls sacrificed on the Festival of Atonement
70 palm trees in Elim (Numbers 33)
70 sons of a certain Judge (Book of Judges)
70 other disciples of Jesus (NOT the apostles)

888:
Lord Jesus Christ (Greek Gematria number value)

666:
AntiChrist

For more info, pick the Baal HaTurim Chumash (Commentary on the Torah) available through ArtScroll Publications and also pick up E.W. Bullinger's "Number in Scripture" as well.

By the way, Jesus said "I am" 8 times in the "New" Testament.
Jesus also said: "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to me unless the Father has sent him."

Later,
hellas1

[gambit]

Tis' is an intresting thought. It's true what Artorius said how he was just as divine and he was just as human yet I wonder. Jesus was always talking about how he knew Gods plan, how he knew he'd eventually be persecuted by the Jews but maybe he didn't know he was going up against crucifixion. If he did, I doubt he'd have yelled "My god, my god why have you forsaken me" but something more along the lines of "HOLY CRAP THIS HURTS ALOT!"

Then again maybe its because the bible is more about it's symbolical message rather than the question of whether or not the story is factual.

[Vladimir Lenin]

As Jesus the Nazarene was slowing dieing on the Cross, the one that he had carried from Jerusalem to Golgotha (Place of the Skull) he cried out 7 last words before breathing his last. The fourth time he cried out he shouted "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" (My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?)

This always stood out as a bit curious to me. Why would God himself or his "incarnate" say this? Aren't they the inseparable? Surely they can't abandon/forsake themselves, right?

From another view point, ff Jesus was just a man. He was expecting God to save him from the cross, when he put his "spirit" into the hands of God (meaning he let his fate up to God) also points to this.

Your thoughts?

Well being an Arian Catholic I don't believe that Jesus was God. Jesus was a man who God's spirtual "son" descended into. Jesus was a man to be followed, not to be worshipped.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Well being an Arian Catholic I don't believe that Jesus was God. Jesus was a man who God's spirtual "son" descended into. Jesus was a man to be followed, not to be worshipped.

That doesn't make you an Arian, since they believed Jesus was God just that he was also created before time rather than totally eternal like God the Father. And calling yourself an "Arian Catholic" is like calling yourself a "Republican Democrat" - it's a total contradiction in terms.

You seem to need to figure out your terminology a bit better. The position you describe above is Adoptionism and is nothing like Arianism.

[hellheaven1987]

That doesn't make you an Arian, since they believed Jesus was God just that he was also created before time rather than totally eternal like God the Father. And calling yourself an "Arian Catholic" is like calling yourself a "Republican Democrat" - it's a total contradiction in terms.

Does that mean Jesus is God the Son???:hmmm:

So what is the difference between God the Father and God the Son???

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Does that mean Jesus is God the Son???:hmmm:

So what is the difference between God the Father and God the Son???

How long have you got? That was the question that spawned a dozen or so "heresies" while Christians tried to work this out (you'd think Jesus would have explained it all - almost makes you think this stuff is all crap ... :hmmm

The Arians noted that Jesus was supposed to be the "begotten" son of God the Father and so argued that while he was God the Son, he can't be eternal and eternally pre-existent like the Father and must have been created at some point before the beginning of time. So they argued that he was God, but also "proceeded from the Father", was not fully eternal and so wasn't totally equal to the Father.

The Catholics argued that Jesus was "begotten" in a mystical sense, but was fully eternal, was not created by the Father and so was totally equal to him. They said he was "one in being with the Father" and did not "proceed from him".

It was this small quibble that was the topic of the Council of Nicea in AD 325.

There is a common misconception - perpetuated by a certain crappy novel by an idiot called Dan Brown - that the dispute was over whether Jesus was God. It wasn't. It was simply over whether Jesus as God was eternal like the Father or created by him before time. The Catholics won the debate and their position has been pretty much accepted ever since.

Our John Galt seems confused over what Arianism is and has muddled it up with Adoptionism - the idea that Jesus only became God at some point in his earthly life eg his baptism in the Jordan. The Arians did not hold that view.

[Kurogane]

Here is your response to John 3:16.

It's very easy to get derailed in the whole topic or understanding of words and sentences when it comes to theology, ergo you have so many different amount of "religions" that have different views or interpretations of the bible.

I believe the drawing I attached to my post explains to you the message. This drawing explains it much better than words.

I am glad to see that you believe in God, it's really something amazing and I have shared the gospel many times and I've seen people come to Christ, I tell you that nothing else has come to satisfy me more than that in this life till now.

With that said and knowing that you believe in God, don't you think he is able to do as much as he likes or whatever he wants? Why is it sometimes so hard for us human beings to believe what we do not comprehend but is true, but believe in these things that are false, theories or man made things that we make comprehensive to ourselves but are false and do not please God? Just a thought - I think it's our human nature to walk away from God. We must be humble and pray and give him more of our praise and less rebellion (this last paragraph, is just a view that I have in humanity - not just you spartan, and I am part of your equation)

[Mathais]

When chirst said that god litterly left him he was alone you might say for his father was with him the whole time he was here. It was need for he had to know what it was like to suffer the worst kind of lonlyness to help those who need him in times of need. Now am not saying that god abandons us no he never dose but in those moments where it dose feel like it he sends his son. For he shall sucker his pepole or help them. When he said father unto thy hand i commend my spirit the work which came to do was done he let them do those things to him keep that in mind so when it was over that what he said.

[Spartan90]

Simply put, Jesus Christ was the son of God. They are two different entities. The Trinity doctrine is one that I've never fully understood, why would they all be one and the same? Why would Jesus pray to God, if he IS God? Why does he refer to God as "My Father" and God refer to Jesus as "My Son" if they are one entity?

It is very simple: God created Jesus to be his Son. And the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost is God's acting force.

[IronBlood]

@mostly everyone

Some of you are still missing my question. Why would Jesus cry out to God, if he IS God? I very well doubt God can forsake his manifestion/person.


@hellas1

I am very well aware of the symbolic meaning of numbers in the OT and NT, but I don't see how that has to do with the topic.

Oringally Posted by Kurogane

The fact that Jesus became sin

Lol what?

I'm sorry to re post guys, but you don't seem to grasp the fact that Jesus was quoting Psalm 22. Go read it, instead of making your own ideas, or versions of the story that fit your ideals.

Yes he did quote Psalms 22 but that doesn't change the meaning of it.

[Spartan90]

IronBlood - Refer my above post. I am a devout Christian, and don't believe in the Trinity. I find it almost ludicrous to believe that Jesus and God can be one person.

[IronBlood]

IronBlood - Refer my above post. I am a devout Christian, and don't believe in the Trinity. I find it almost ludicrous to believe that Jesus and God can be one person.

Technically by Most Stanadards you have to hold the belief in the Trinity in order to be "Christian"

But anyways I read your post, I also those have questions/thoughts

[Kurogane]

Lol what?

Allow me to explain this that you don't seem to understand.

MAN = Sinner, mankind chose to go his separate away and disobey God. Therefore men are sinners. God incarnated himself as man, therefore becoming a sinner. Or as some of us Christians associate man with sin, ergo the notorious statement in the christian church that refers to Jesus becoming sin. I apologize for jumping in to conclusions with confusing statements, that might seem to not make sense to you, I hope this helped though.

To the other point about the trinity,

Why do I believe that God, The Holy Spirit and Jesus are the same person? Well to begin with let's look at the whole issue concerning Jesus' sacrifice on the cross for our sins. Before this period of time in which Jesus lived, the israelites for instance used to sacrifice animals for redemption of sins etc. Jesus said I am the good shepherd and I lay down my life on my own accord, meaning he is in full control of what happens to him. His sacrifice was the ultimate sacrifice and no other after that pleases God. Now think, why would God only be pleased with another sacrifice if not his own for the people he loves so much.

Jesus spoke in parables, made statements to be understood with everyone, you're right he never professed to be God himself, furthermore when a man said to him "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit the kingdom of heaven" Jesus replied "Why do you call me good? Don't you know there's no one good?" like saying are you positive that I am the person you want to follow?

My view on the trinity is simple, the father son relationship is made for mankind to understand the close relationship between God and Christ, Christ had all the answers for mankind and their problems, angels don't have those, saints don't have the answers, only God does, and always answered the right thing to the questions he was asked and the tests he was submitted to.

The sacrifice of Christ would just be another mere sacrifice if it wasn't the blood of God. His sacrifice was perfect, to ransom us from this forsaken world.

And that leads to answer the other question as to why Jesus prayed to our heavenly father. I say again, he became man and a sinner, he was a servant-leader, taught his disciples how to stay faithful to God from a mankind point of view no matter what you're submitted to. I need to reiterate that we're talking about a humble God here. Even in the old testament, how many times does GOD chase after Israel? How many times is he willing to forgive, to extend his hand of friendship.

The fact is that God is willing to chase you down till the very end asking you to loose your life, just so that you may find it.

[Spartan90]

Allow me to explain this that you don't seem to understand.

MAN = Sinner, mankind chose to go his separate away and disobey God. Therefore men are sinners. God incarnated himself as man, therefore becoming a sinner. Or as some of us Christians associate man with sin, ergo the notorious statement in the christian church that refers to Jesus becoming sin. I apologize for jumping in to conclusions with confusing statements, that might seem to not make sense to you, I hope this helped though.

To the other point about the trinity,

Why do I believe that God, The Holy Spirit and Jesus are the same person? Well to begin with let's look at the whole issue concerning Jesus' sacrifice on the cross for our sins. Before this period of time in which Jesus lived, the israelites for instance used to sacrifice animals for redemption of sins etc. Jesus said I am the good shepherd and I lay down my life on my own accord, meaning he is in full control of what happens to him. His sacrifice was the ultimate sacrifice and no other after that pleases God. Now think, why would God only be pleased with another sacrifice if not his own for the people he loves so much.

Jesus spoke in parables, made statements to be understood with everyone, you're right he never professed to be God himself, furthermore when a man said to him "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit the kingdom of heaven" Jesus replied "Why do you call me good? Don't you know there's no one good?" like saying are you positive that I am the person you want to follow?

My view on the trinity is simple, the father son relationship is made for mankind to understand the close relationship between God and Christ, Christ had all the answers for mankind and their problems, angels don't have those, saints don't have the answers, only God does, and always answered the right thing to the questions he was asked and the tests he was submitted to.

The sacrifice of Christ would just be another mere sacrifice if it wasn't the blood of God. His sacrifice was perfect, to ransom us from this forsaken world.

And that leads to answer the other question as to why Jesus prayed to our heavenly father. I say again, he became man and a sinner, he was a servant-leader, taught his disciples how to stay faithful to God from a mankind point of view no matter what you're submitted to. I need to reiterate that we're talking about a humble God here. Even in the old testament, how many times does GOD chase after Israel? How many times is he willing to forgive, to extend his hand of friendship.

The fact is that God is willing to chase you down till the very end asking you to loose your life, just so that you may find it.

Hmm, without sounding offensive, I still don't really understand this doctrine. Without sounding rude, and I say this with utmost repsect to you and your beliefs, but show my in the Bible where it says that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one entity. Show me where it even says the word "Trinity" in the Bible.

Now God sent Jesus as a ransom sacrafice for mankind, due to the Adamic Sin. Refer to this scripture..

"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

To me, it clearly states that God has a Son, and he loved humans to the point that he sent his son as a ransom sacrafice for us.

[Vladimir Lenin]

It is very simple: God created Jesus to be his Son.

Then Jesus is not eternal and not God. He is different from God since he was not eternal.

[Spartan90]

Then Jesus is not eternal and not God. He is different from God since he was not eternal.

I apologize, I'm not sure I follow you...

[Kurogane]

The fact that Jesus became sin, and gave his own place in the Kingdom of Heaven speaks louder than anything else that has happened in history or ever will till his second coming.

Jesus is the true example of what a man should be, a servant-leader. Serve his brothers and sisters and lead them courageously to the paths of righteousness.

Us Christians, have an awesome God, that humbled himself not only in the cross for us but with his disciples.

2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus. 3Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 4so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

Now tell me of any leaders, that would bow down before you and wash your feet. Just one of many examples of how God humbled himself before us.