Questions on Negative proof.

[bushbush]

Bren just asked me an interesting question today:

"I asked for evidence that a worldwide flood could not build the Grand Canyon. And you have not provided that."

don't you see a pattern here? why do people like him always try to use negative proof in their "rationale"...similiar like "prove to me god can't exist" "prove to me god did not create the world"....

haven't they learned the flaw of negative proof in daily life? haven't they learned that the burden of proof is on them in order to support their claim (here being that Grand Canyon was created by Bible Flood)...

seriously...weak.

[removeduser_426582376423734]

It's called unfalsifiability and its a childish way to think.

[Juvenal]

Well this is just too tempting, so here goes...

In essence, the Grand Canyon is just too complicated to have been formed by a single event. Here is the current consensus.

Formation of the Grand Canyon

Prior to about 35 million years ago the ancestral Colorado River flowed across a vast plain, along a course very similar to that of today.



When the Kaibab Plateau began to uplift approximately 35 million years ago the river was diverted to the southeast because it could not cross newly created barrier. The new course for the river now flowed out to the Gulf of Mexico instead of to the Pacific Ocean. The old course on west side of the Kaibab Plateau, the Hualapai Drainage System, continued to be a major drainage for the plateau itself and the regions west of it.



At some point around 12 million years ago, the river's course to the Gulf of Mexico became blocked and an enormous lake, know referred to as Lake Bidahochi, was formed as a result.



Meanwhile, on the western side of the Kaibab Plateau, a process known as "headwater erosion" began eating its way through the southern portion of the plateau. After millions of years this erosional process allowed the Hualapai system to break through the barrier created by the uplifted plateau and rejoin the ancestral Colorado.



Once the break-through was complete the ancestral Colorado River began to follow the new course becuase of its steeper and more desirable descent. The waters of Lake Bidahochi began to drain through the new course as well and the result is the gorge through which the Little Colorado River now flows. The combined flow of the Colorado River and the Little Colorado River west of their confluence continued to widen and deepen the course and created the Grand Canyon.



After Lake Bidahochi was drained the space that it once occupied was replaced by the Little Colorado River drainage system.

[fieldmarshal]

What else did you expect to get?..actual proof that god actually exists?

This is the only way religion can fight the age old question..did god exist...well he must have since there is no proof that he didn't.

[Garrigan]

meh. Just tell them to prove that they arent invincible to a 100 storey drop.

[The Good]

For the most part, I sort of quit debating Young Earth Creationism versus Old Earth or Evolution. People will believe what they believe about this, and so will I. I'm divided between Young or Old Earth Creationism though, according Genesis, YEC seems the most consistent, but OEC is a possibility as well.

[Vladimir Lenin]

I'm divided between Young or Old Earth Creationism though, according Genesis, YEC seems the most consistent, but OEC is a possibility as well.

I myself am a believer in Intelligent Design that God was the designer. How long is a day to god? Millions of years? Genesis and Evolution can easily fit together.

[bushbush]

I myself am a believer in Intelligent Design that God was the designer. How long is a day to god? Millions of years? Genesis and Evolution can easily fit together.

[Stark of Winterfell]

For the record, I hate biblical literalists. But Galt brings up a point, how long is a "day" in genesis. It could be something like an era. If you use the bible as a guide instead of absolute literal truth, it's a lot better.

[Playfishpaste]

Galt is one of the religious types I dig, smart ones. Not many of those anyway.

You don't have to dismiss evolution to be a christian, you don't have to dismiss big bang theory because you're a christian, you don't have to dismiss any kind of scientific or logical theory that boasts it disproves something in the bible. Faith is a matter of faith.

[Juvenal]

I myself am a believer in Intelligent Design that God was the designer. How long is a day to god? Millions of years? Genesis and Evolution can easily fit together.

OK, so the days in Genesis are millions of years.

1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

So, Adam must have got rather bored waiting for Almighty God to finish his Sabbath rest!

The literalist view of the Bible is fraught with difficulties, most Christians take a more balanced view, recognising allegorical stories and parables for what they are. Literalists just tie themselves up in knots trying to explain the inconsistencies.

As for Intelligent Design, well it cannot be proved or disproved - it is a matter of faith. Science does not address "why", only "how". So whatever mechanisms are discovered, you can always say that God arranged for things to be as they are.

[Ishoss]

I myself am a believer in Intelligent Design that God was the designer. How long is a day to god? Millions of years? Genesis and Evolution can easily fit together.

And maybe god by "Thou shalt not steal" really meant, "You shall steal everything, except for thy neighbours pants. Thou are holy."

Well, hey! It's possible that's the meaning god puts in it!

[Spartan90]

I myself am a believer in Intelligent Design that God was the designer. How long is a day to god? Millions of years? Genesis and Evolution can easily fit together.

Yes, you are slightly correct. The word "Day" in hebrew doesn't literally translate into a 24hr period, but just a measurement of a prolonged period of time. It also doesn't translate into 1000 human years, as the Bible explained a day to God is 1000 years to us.

So we don't exactly know how long each of these "creative days" is, if we did, we could find out how old the earth is.

However, evolution can't go hand in hand with creation. It's one or the other. As I've discussed in another thread, to dismiss the book of Genesis, is to rock the foundations of Christianity itself. If you only view Genesis as a story, that means Jesus died for no reason. The reason God sent his son to die for us was as a ransom sacrafice for the Adamic Sin. If Adam wasn't real, was Jesus' death in vain?? Think about what the Bible is - 66 books, each complimenting each other in one book to guide our lives. You can't just choose the bits of the Bible you like and dismiss other parts. Being a Christian means following what the bible says AS A WHOLE, not just the bits you want.

If you believe in evolution, you believe in evolution. Period. You can't affiliate the theory of evolution with creation, it isn't possible.

why isn’t a day in genesis simply a day? everything else is apparently literal, hence if god wished to say it was any other measure of time he would have said so. if not literal then a more appropriate analogy would be advisable like, 'year' or 'era' [or; it took a very very long time]. i am sure god is capable of such things, so let us just presume that the bible was not written by god, or if it was then he meant 7 days!?

Once again, just doing a little research in translation will reveal your answer. The Bible was written in Hebrew mate, the Hebrew translation for the word "day" doesn't refer to the 24hr period that we know in English.

[Vladimir Lenin]

.

However, evolution can't go hand in hand with creation. It's one or the other. As I've discussed in another thread, to dismiss the book of Genesis, is to rock the foundations of Christianity itself. If you only view Genesis as a story, that means Jesus died for no reason. The reason God sent his son to die for us was as a ransom sacrafice for the Adamic Sin. If Adam wasn't real, was Jesus' death in vain?? Think about what the Bible is - 66 books, each complimenting each other in one book to guide our lives. You can't just choose the bits of the Bible you like and dismiss other parts. Being a Christian means following what the bible says AS A WHOLE, not just the bits you want.

If you believe in evolution, you believe in evolution. Period. You can't affiliate the theory of evolution with creation, it isn't possible.

Why not? The order of how everything came into being in the book of Genesis and how everything came to being through evolution are neraly the same:

Genesis: Evolution
Earth Earth
Water Water
Creatures of the Water Creatures of the Water
Creatures of the Land Creatures of the land
Creatures of the Air Creatures of the Air
Humans Humans


Within the Bible are thousands of errors caused by mistranslation, or just the Author's mistake. The Bible has to be read with caution, logic, and reason.

There is a need for Jesus Christ if we believe the Adam story is a parable, all of us in our lifetime lie, covet, use the name of our God in vain etc...

Jesus died to forgive our sins.

[Spartan90]

Why not? The order of how everything came into being in the book of Genesis and how everything came to being through evolution are neraly the same:

Genesis: Evolution
Earth Earth
Water Water
Creatures of the Water Creatures of the Water
Creatures of the Land Creatures of the land
Creatures of the Air Creatures of the Air
Humans Humans


Within the Bible are thousands of errors caused by mistranslation, or just the Author's mistake. The Bible has to be read with caution, logic, and reason.

There is a need for Jesus Christ if we believe the Adam story is a parable, all of us in our lifetime lie, covet, use the name of our God in vain etc...

Jesus died to forgive our sins.

Good point, nevertheless, if one calls himself a Christian, to say that there may be mistakes in the Bible because of the Author, that's basically calling God imperfect, as he was the Author of the Bible. (2 Tim 3:16)

Plus if Adam and Eve weren't real, or their story in Eden wasn't real, that calls into questions the whole geneology mentioned in the Gospels, where it traces back Jesus through to Adam.

[Juvenal]

...However, evolution can't go hand in hand with creation. It's one or the other. As I've discussed in another thread, to dismiss the book of Genesis, is to rock the foundations of Christianity itself. If you only view Genesis as a story, that means Jesus died for no reason. The reason God sent his son to die for us was as a ransom sacrafice for the Adamic Sin. If Adam wasn't real, was Jesus' death in vain?? Think about what the Bible is - 66 books, each complimenting each other in one book to guide our lives. You can't just choose the bits of the Bible you like and dismiss other parts. Being a Christian means following what the bible says AS A WHOLE, not just the bits you want.

If you believe in evolution, you believe in evolution. Period. You can't affiliate the theory of evolution with creation, it isn't possible.

The majority of Christians are Roman Catholic, here is the Catholic view on Creation and Genesis

Fundamentalists often make it a test of Christian orthodoxy to believe that the world was created in six 24-hour days and that no other interpretations of Genesis 1 are possible. They claim that until recently this view of Genesis was the only acceptable one—indeed, the only one there was.

The writings of the Fathers, who were much closer than we are in time and culture to the original audience of Genesis, show that this was not the case. There was wide variation of opinion on how long creation took. Some said only a few days; others argued for a much longer, indefinite period. Those who took the latter view appealed to the fact "that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Pet. 3:8; cf. Ps. 90:4), that light was created on the first day, but the sun was not created till the fourth day (Gen. 1:3, 16), and that Adam was told he would die the same "day" as he ate of the tree, yet he lived to be 930 years old (Gen. 2:17, 5:5).

Catholics are at liberty to believe that creation took a few days or a much longer period, according to how they see the evidence, and subject to any future judgment of the Church (Pius XII’s 1950 encyclical Humani Generis 36–37). They need not be hostile to modern cosmology. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "[M]any scientific studies . . . have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life forms, and the appearance of man. These studies invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator" (CCC 283). [my emphasis]

So it would appear that there need not be a contradiction between Evolution and Christianity. Evolution is a mechanism, it doesn't deny the existence of God, but it does conflict with a literal interpretation of Genesis.

In my own (possibly heretical) view, the Old and New Testaments are very different things. The Old Testament is heavily allegorical and does not need to be taken literally. It represents stages in the growth of Mankind (after all, Christianity no longer supports circumcision or smiting or the exclusivity of the 12 tribes of Israel). It is the New Testament that is to be taken literally, i.e. that Jesus actually did and said the things which are described.

The New Testament constantly refers to the Old, either to explain how things are going to change or to confirm that the life of Jesus is fulfilling the old prophecies. Therefore the Christian New Testament is replacing the Jewish Old Testament, so Christians should not be getting obsessed with things like the exact wording of Genesis, they should be looking to the New Testament in order to learn how to live their lives.

[Yaga Shu Ra]

Yes, you are slightly correct. The word "Day" in hebrew doesn't literally translate into a 24hr period, but just a measurement of a prolonged period of time. It also doesn't translate into 1000 human years, as the Bible explained a day to God is 1000 years to us.

The Christian God suffers the effects of time?

Subjected to what is supposedly one of his own creations. Omnipotence just flew out the window.

[Mathias]

I myself am a believer in Intelligent Design that God was the designer. How long is a day to god? Millions of years? Genesis and Evolution can easily fit together.

Why, for the love god (pardon the pun), would the term day be used when talking about time for god, if it has no relation to what an actual day is at all? (a single, full rotation of the earth).

[Spartan90]

Why, for the love god (pardon the pun), would the term day be used when talking about time for god, if it has no relation to what an actual day is at all? (a single, full rotation of the earth).

Because "Day" doesn't mean a single, full rotation of the earth in Hebrew.

[Mythos]

People will believe what they believe about this, and so will I.

Sure, at the risk of being wrong, comical and downright ignorant. Have you, perchance, tried some...gasp...science?