Why are humans so stubborn?

[Astaroth]

Well, the topic basically says it all - why are humans seemingly 100% unable to change their beliefs and opinions?

This can be seen everywhere all the time. Just look at the creationist clique, they can be proven wrong twenty times but the don't seem to even read what you say. Ten posts later they come back with the EXACT same crap. Here on TWC this phenomene is quite widespread - just have a look at e.g. the mudpit.
People repeat their opinions for 30 pages, then the topic dies.

I've NEVER seen anyone on this forum change his mind. Never. Even if one guy has a much, much more logical argument and if he completely destroys the points of the other guy, guy #2 will never admit his defeat. Either he will keep stubbornly repeating the same crap forever or he'll just run away/dodge. But admit that he was wrong? Adapting a new point of views? Never!

I find that very frustrating to say the least. The same happens in real life as well. E.g. I discuss with somebody over why I think that Christianity is ridiculous. I prove him wrong everywhere, refute all of his arguments and he has nothing to say left. Does he say, "you have convinced me"? No! He goes like, "well, I can see your point but in the end I still feel more comfortable believing in god" (or something like that).

In many or actually most of these cases any third party observers would laugh at one side of the argument because it's so utterly ridiculous. But the guy, despite getting proven wrong 3423942 times, doesnt seem to wanna accept it.

My real question now is: if in such discussions etc somebody refuses to give in - is that mainly his personal pride not wanting to admit defeat, while he knows secretly that he's wrong, or does he actually still believe that he's right?

Discuss

[Noremac]

Because we are skeptic................................wait till your rep leaves you..............................I only have one!!!!!!!! But I have 8 points!!!! I NEED TWO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes we are skeptic.

[Siblesz]

People will never immediately change their beliefs after an encounter with reality. You have to let the dust settle, let the thoughts that you have transmitted make some effect upon their minds, and sooner or later, if the person you were addressing is not some arrogant little monkey, his beliefs will change more than they will not. And if that doesn't happen, well... too bad for the guy. His disasters in life will come primarily from his ignorance. Let it be. Perhaps that's meant to happen. Life is a divine comedy. It wouldn't be funny if everyone understood reality.

[MaximiIian]

Well, the topic basically says it all - why are humans seemingly 100% unable to change their beliefs and opinions?

Depends on where you go. Most people I know will change their opinions if presented with something they think makes more sense.
I know I have my opinions. I went from being an agnostic to an atheist, to an agnostic again, to a pantheist, to a panentheistic polytheist.

In general, I guess it's because we as individuals get comfortable with the idea that "Okay, I understand. I got it, now shut up and leave me alone".
And when we're shown that we don't "got it", we get upset, annoyed, and feel stupid, and have to go back and rethink everything, which is so tedious and annoying. It spawns out of laziness, really.

[The Cobra]

Close minded people, Close minded people....

[vizi]

Sibs is wrong. No one understand reality. And why are you trying to prove the creationists wrong? Do you not understand that religion is not about facts or proof but about faith?

faith - n. - belief that is not based on proof

You will have better luck punching a hole through a 3 inch thick piece of steel.

Instead of focusing on trying to prove them wrong focus on trying to ignore debates with people who have no desire to listen to your facts or your proof.

[Rich86]

Yes I must admit - I get tired of some people being very clearly shown to be wrong just 'vanishing' into thin air. Yet when a similar topic emerges they post the same nonsense that got very easily disproven in the previous topic - seems a bit silly to me.

In saying that though - if someone really thinks they are right I guess you can't expect them to change their mind that easily.

[Hound_Of_Culann]

It's just human nature, I suppose. It's the open-minded ones (or the ones with the ubeatable arguments) that win community respect in the end, though.

[Perkele]

Well, for one I have actually changed my opinions. You are forgetting that life is a bit longer than the birth and death cycle of a single thread on some internet forum. It's not one single thread, or article or newspiece that has changed my opinions, it's all of them together slowly molding it to something else.

Secondly, this is the internet. Anyone can make any ridicilous claim here and even back it up with more ridicilous stuff from the net. And best of all if you don't like it; IGNORE IT!

It's a completely another game 'in real life'.

[AqD]

Nah. I changed my opinions after reading these discussion.

I used to think religions as irrational crap, now I can see why people love religions soo much - because religions make them to believe they're worthless and stupid monkeys, and they need to obey and follow some self-proclaimed prophets (liars!) and worship their gods in order to live well. Because they like to follow others, especially something like god, rather than to be the master of themselves.

Religion is simply a wrong way of thinking. If there is a god we should kill him, not to live under his mercy!
________
California Dispensary

[Ulyaoth]

I argue for the sake of arguing half the time. People think I'm all kinds of crap because I'll argue convincingly for anything that's contrary to the person I perceive as being the most annoying or just following some other idiot's opinion in the subject. I couldn't care less about most issues other than to get pissed off at people who care too much towards one thing or the other.

I used to think religions as irrational crap, now I can see why people love religions soo much - because religions make them to believe they're worthless and stupid monkeys, and they need to obey and follow some self-proclaimed prophets (liars!) and worship their gods in order to live well. Because they like to follow others, especially something like god, rather than to be the master of themselves.

Yes, be the master of yourself by being slaves to the whims of 'experts' like scientists and whatever idiotic position of politics the masses have deemed the 'cool,' and 'logical' ideology.

[AqD]

Yes, be the master of yourself by being slaves to the whims of 'experts' like scientists and whatever idiotic position of politics the masses have deemed the 'cool,' and 'logical' ideology.

Dude, it has nothing to do with logic or scientists. I repeated this many many times, guess you never read!

God(s)-worshippers are as sad as slaves because they don't believe they should be the masters of themselves and the world they live in.
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PRILOSEC ATTORNEYS

[sephodwyrm]

Well, the topic basically says it all - why are humans seemingly 100% unable to change their beliefs and opinions?

Because most people here have a western style of education that promotes the fallacious belief that their opinions are right and superior. It is the inevitable result of individualism, the lack of respect for authority and a bloated sense of ego.

Not that it's bad.

But admit that he was wrong? Adapting a new point of views?

This is a virtue that only the greatest of us has.
I am not great.

Btw, internet debates are probably the worst places to convince anyone. Everyone's phallic size is about the length and girth of a Boeing 747 fuselage in the WWW. And the worst part is that you can't really sense "sincerity" from the other side in any discussion. Usually what convinces people in any discussion would be the means it is delivered - i.e. how sincere the point is carried across, the appeal to our emotions and also the facial features of the orator/demogogue/teacher etc.

This is also the reason why demagogues and political leaders HAVE to have a public appearance that appeals to the masses.

[Astaroth]

Good points, guys

@seph: yes, but isn't it weird how not logic and sense play the important roles but rather appearance and the way we act?

That's a massive problem in our society imo - we don't elect smart, good people for president but rather those that act in a convincing way - we end up with politicians instead of real presidents and ministers. We dont have the best guy doing the job but rather the guy who convinces us he's the best guy for it.

[Ummon]

Most people cannot deal with formal logic: they do not understand it, and they cannot use it. Some are even worse, they understand it and use it stereotypally, which makes their reasoning automatic, and mistaken.

I have sometimes changed my opinions.

On Bush, for example. At first I thought he was awful, then I thought he was decent, and finally I reverted back to thinking he was awful.

But the problem is not if you can change opinions. The problem is if you can discern the qualities of opposing arguments. It's not easy. Because it takes the ability to consider yours on the same ground of the opposing ones, obviously.

[Ummon]

Actually you are your own master only as much as you know you aren't.

[AqD]

Actually you are your own master only as much as you know you aren't.

True but it's the goal that matters. If you submit you'll be a slave forever.

Nobility.

By believing they're born to be inferior and worthless worms before the greeeeeeeaaaaaatt god?
________
LIVE SEX WEBSHOWS

[Ulyaoth]

Nope, can't remember reading any of your posts. Just assumed you were like all typical anti religion people who's whole argument about religious people being irrational idiots is that they haven't changed the people they'll follow like lemmings no matter what idiotic things they tell them from being priests to scientists.

[ironcurtin117]

Perhaps it is a survival mechanism that helps us retain some degree of sanity and uniformity in our lives while a new experience that is shocking/conflicting sinks in and we are ready to accept/process it. That's just on the larger scale, as for people being stubborn, this is the internet and it is a forum that brings together many people of many backgrounds, cultures, creeds and world views. Half of the time posters are just being stubborn for the sake of argument and the opportunity to vent/ get their ideas out and that is unfortunate but necessary. And in all honesty, do you like it when people tell you that you are wrong?

[Ulyaoth]

Changing your mind is a sign of a weak mind with no conviction.