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  1. #1
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    Default Prominent US liberal's crisis of conscience

    David Marmet has been a prominent New York liberal, also a writer of plays on Broadway about feminist students blackmailing and extorting upon doting and elderly professors, and such. But since his famous change of mind in March, he's been wont to call NPR the National Palestinian Radio.


    John Maynard Keynes was twitted with changing his mind. He replied, "When the facts change, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"

    My favorite example of a change of mind was Norman Mailer at The Village Voice.

    Norman took on the role of drama critic, weighing in on the New York premiere of Waiting for Godot.

    Twentieth century's greatest play. Without bothering to go, Mailer called it a piece of garbage.

    When he did get around to seeing it, he realized his mistake. He was no longer a Voice columnist, however, so he bought a page in the paper and wrote a retraction, praising the play as the masterpiece it is.

    ...

    [T]he Constitution, rather than suggesting that all behave in a godlike manner, recognizes that, to the contrary, people are swine and will take any opportunity to subvert any agreement in order to pursue what they consider to be their proper interests.

    To that end, the Constitution separates the power of the state into those three branches which are for most of us (I include myself) the only thing we remember from 12 years of schooling.

    The Constitution, written by men with some experience of actual government, assumes that the chief executive will work to be king, the Parliament will scheme to sell off the silverware, and the judiciary will consider itself Olympian and do everything it can to much improve (destroy) the work of the other two branches. So the Constitution pits them against each other, in the attempt not to achieve stasis, but rather to allow for the constant corrections necessary to prevent one branch from getting too much power for too long.

    Rather brilliant. In the abstract, we may envision an Olympian perfection of perfect beings in Washington doing the business of their employers, The People, but any of us who has ever been at a zoning meeting with our property at stake is aware of the urge to cut through all the pernicious and go straight to firearms.

    I found not only that I didn't trust the current government (that, to me, was no surprise), but that an impartial review revealed that the faults of this president—whom I, a good liberal, considered a monster—were little different from those of a president whom I revered.


    Bush got us into Iraq, JFK into Vietnam. Bush stole the election in Florida; Kennedy stole his in Chicago. Bush outed a CIA agent; Kennedy left hundreds of them to die in the surf at the Bay of Pigs. Bush lied about his military service; Kennedy accepted a Pulitzer Prize for a book written by Ted Sorenson. Bush was in bed with the Saudis, Kennedy with the Mafia. Oh.

    And I began to question my hatred for "the Corporations"—the hatred of which, I found, was but the flip side of my hunger for those goods and services they provide and without which we could not live.

    And I began to question my distrust of the "Bad, Bad Military" of my youth, which, I saw, was then and is now made up of those men and women who actually risk their lives to protect the rest of us from a very hostile world. Is the military always right? No. Neither is government, nor are the corporations—they are just different signposts for the particular amalgamation of our country into separate working groups, if you will. Are these groups infallible, free from the possibility of mismanagement, corruption, or crime? No, and neither are you or I. So, taking the tragic view, the question was not "Is everything perfect?" but "How could it be better, at what cost, and according to whose definition?" Put into which form, things appeared to me to be unfolding pretty well.

    Do I speak as a member of the "privileged class"? If you will—but classes in the United States are mobile, not static, which is the Marxist view. That is: Immigrants came and continue to come here penniless and can (and do) become rich; the nerd makes a trillion dollars; the single mother, penniless and ignorant of English, sends her two sons to college (my grandmother). On the other hand, the rich and the children of the rich can go belly-up; the hegemony of the railroads is appropriated by the airlines, that of the networks by the Internet; and the individual may and probably will change status more than once within his lifetime.
    http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-03-...dead-liberal/1
    Last edited by SigniferOne; September 19, 2008 at 12:21 PM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  2. #2
    the_mango55's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Prominent US liberal's crisis of conscience

    Interesting comparison between Bush and Kennedy.
    ttt
    Adopted son of Lord Sephiroth, Youngest sibling of Pent uP Rage, Prarara the Great, Nerwen Carnesîr, TB666 and, Boudicca. In the great Family of the Black Prince

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    Default Re: Prominent US liberal's crisis of conscience

    These aren't very good or factual comparisons.

    (1) The Viet Nam conflict had started after WWII, Kennedy just sent more American advisors. IIRC Kennedy did not sent any US combat troops to Viet Nam. That doesn't compare with the 300,000 man or so invasion of iraq.

    (2) Kennedy won the popular vote. The dealings in Chicago were muddy, but Illionis electoral votes could not have flipped the result. Nixon would have needed to pick up another 24 from somewhere else. Bush lost the popular vote, and without 300 votes in florida would we be saying President Gore.

    (3) Cubans exiles died in the bay of pigs, not CIA agents. How this compares to the Valerie Plane scandle I dont know.


    (4) Bush did not lie about his military service, a certain CBS news anchor found out the hard way.

    (5) Kennedy was in league with the mafia? I thought the conspiracy was that the mafia killed him because Robert was breaking them up.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Prominent US liberal's crisis of conscience

    Do I speak as a member of the "privileged class"? If you will—but classes in the United States are mobile, not static, which is the Marxist view. That is: Immigrants came and continue to come here penniless and can (and do) become rich; the nerd makes a trillion dollars; the single mother, penniless and ignorant of English, sends her two sons to college (my grandmother). On the other hand, the rich and the children of the rich can go belly-up; the hegemony of the railroads is appropriated by the airlines, that of the networks by the Internet; and the individual may and probably will change status more than once within his lifetime.
    That's interesting, does he have any statistics to support those anecdotes? As far as I know class division in America is greater than ever and class mobility, up or down is lower than ever.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Prominent US liberal's crisis of conscience

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    (1) The Viet Nam conflict had started after WWII, Kennedy just sent more American advisors. IIRC Kennedy did not sent any US combat troops to Viet Nam. That doesn't compare with the 300,000 man or so invasion of iraq.
    Kennedy OK'd the overthrow of the Diem regime in South Vietnam. After that the South fell to pieces, and the North took the opportunity to go on the offensive. Up to that point the US could have washed its hands of the conflict and walked away. After the assassination of Diem, the US was stuck with South Vietnam under the "you broke it, you own it" principle.

    (2) Kennedy won the popular vote. The dealings in Chicago were muddy, but Illionis electoral votes could not have flipped the result.
    At the time some Republicans also alleged massive fraud in Texas, which was a close race. Texas + Illinois would have flipped the election to Nixion. If you take account of possible vote fraud and other complications (like Democratic electors who were not pledged to Kennedy) it's unclear whether Kennedy won the popular vote. Of course Nixon was right to concede. Kennedy had a better claim to victory, and a protracted dispute would have undermined whoever eventually became president.

    (3) Cubans exiles died in the bay of pigs, not CIA agents. How this compares to the Valerie Plane scandle I dont know.
    The Cuban exiles were organised, funded, and trained, by the CIA. They were also promised air support. Kennedy sent them to Cuba, and then left them to die. I would say that's a hell of a lot worse than what happened to Valarie Plame (i.e. nothing at all so far).

    (5) Kennedy was in league with the mafia? I thought the conspiracy was that the mafia killed him because Robert was breaking them up.
    JFK's father had some shady connections and the story is that JFK himself used those connections to carry out some of the vote fraud that won the election. I don't think there is any credible evidence for this story, but it's a common theme in JFK conspiracy lit.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Prominent US liberal's crisis of conscience

    kennedy began teh escalation.. LBJ finished it

    omg face it gore lost

    One cannot say for sure that bush is sleeping with the saudis or kennedy with the mafia... but i think we all know its true xD

  7. #7

    Default Re: Prominent US liberal's crisis of conscience

    If you will—but classes in the United States are mobile, not static, which is the Marxist view
    .

    Umpf, yet another of those myths. Social mobility is dramatically low in the USA compared to other western countries. The elite is well entrenched and almost out of reach. Apart from a few lucky ones. Middle class is shrinking and with the poor losing ground fast in income. Sweden scores best I think when it comes down to social mobility in the Western World.


    New York theatre writers....gimme a break.

  8. #8
    the_mango55's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Prominent US liberal's crisis of conscience

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordred View Post
    .

    Umpf, yet another of those myths. Social mobility is dramatically low in the USA compared to other western countries. The elite is well entrenched and almost out of reach. Apart from a few lucky ones. Middle class is shrinking and with the poor losing ground fast in income. Sweden scores best I think when it comes down to social mobility in the Western World.
    Source?
    ttt
    Adopted son of Lord Sephiroth, Youngest sibling of Pent uP Rage, Prarara the Great, Nerwen Carnesîr, TB666 and, Boudicca. In the great Family of the Black Prince

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