Why I dislike mainstream religion.

[gambit]

Why do I dislike mainstream religion, particularly the bible? Let me start with the first set of bollocks that is always attached. The extreme shitiness that is the religous argument, in the sense that it eventually boils down too "God is all powerful/knowing/present and your wrong. period." I dont really need to explain further other than, I hate ing cyclical arguments.

Next. The apparent supreme and utter pointlessness of why we exist. It seems, in the bible, that we are told so far that the only reason for our existence is Gods glory. Why does God need glory, why is that our purpose, who is he trying to prove himself too and finally is this not some massive form of dick-waivery?

Also, how we are promised nirvana for all of eternity, among other things like answers to all the questions that have plagued us for so long, yet we do not get one ounce of that satisfaction until, get this, we die. Oh wow, thats definitely not a trademark trick of, fool your target until they cant do anything about it.

Finally my biggest issue. God's apparent self-esteem issues and denial of them. Many of God's actions (specifically, the Old Testament) seem to have little/no justification at all. For instance, when God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, then at the last second stopped him. Oh, it was a test of Abrahams faith. Why? God already knows the result apparently. Then we have Job. The poster-child for followers, he had everything taken from him and he still praised God. Again, why? Why cause the suffering? You know he will worship you, you know he is a keen follower. Also when you look at all the hundreds of other questionable acts of God, they always pull some excuse somewhere out of their ass (usually boiling down too, he was testing their faith) and it makes me think. If God is so perfect, if the bible is his spoken word, if he has some master plan, then why does he have to make so many goddamn excuses for every action? Sure you could say not everything should be explained perfectly and reasonably because we have 'free will' and that wouldn't be nice to force us to worship him. Sounds like another BS excuse, especially considering if we dont believe we go too hell for eternity.

Well, many of those stories can be metaphorical Gambit, you say. Oh? Who determines this, when did they get that authority and why the didnt the story just say that so people arent believing so many false stories?

This is why I have a respect for older pagan religions, like Greek/Roman Gods. Every God actually has flaws. Gods arent some sublimely unfamiliar shadowey figures with so many questionable flaws yet the denial of them of all levels. No, Gods seem to be just beings of massive powers but regular and evident traits of personality. Also the whole idea of 'free will' does seem evident. You could choose which God to pray too. There is no big leap of faith where its essentially all or nothing. Also, God's dont constantly 'test' the faith of their followers. They reward them. They delight in them. Also the Gods let it be fairly evident that some of them are contemptuous BASTARDS. Not only can I choose not too worship this bastard, hes got the balls too admit he is a bastard.

[Chaigidel]

this is all just a misunderstanding ; granted a misunderstanding perpetuated by the majority of modern believers-- thus little can be said other than where you find a connection to a power outside yourself of any kind, then be greatful( whether you worship zeus, thor or jesus)

[gambit]

this is all just a misunderstanding ; granted a misunderstanding perpetuated by the majority of modern believers-- thus little can be said other than where you find a connection to a power outside yourself of any kind, then be greatful( whether you worship zeus, thor or jesus)

Care to expand on that?

Aww.. there, there, little one. Do you feel better now?

Yes.

I dont get to talk religion much, the few friends I have that actually give a care are too stuck up their own asses in bible thumpery that it's like bashing my head against a brick wall.

Probably the reason for all the angst.

[motiv-8]

Aww.. there, there, little one. Do you feel better now?

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

The Standard of the Mass is always the lowest.

[Chaigidel]

of course gambit I merely thought you didnt care to hear

first of the bible /koran/torah are powerful texts full of knowledge--- one must simply understand the symbols for it to make sense, reading the bible without a strong sense of the symbolism is like trying to do calculus without knowing algebra

there is inherent value in the texts on philosophical principle alone, but the genius of them is the metaphor is a machine of change, a path of understanding.

they all speak of how to attain peace with the Lord, on how to attain peace with the world.

there are volumes and volumes of better men than I who put all the time they had into the bible and other great monotheistic texts, some would say it takes many lifetimes to understand the secrets found within( this is why they are holy books).

but overall If mythological structures please your palette, then you might try reading them and find more than mythological structures within, perhaps you will find a way of looking at things you did not know about.

[gambit]

of course gambit I merely thought you didnt care to hear

first of the bible /koran/torah are powerful texts full of knowledge--- one must simply understand the symbols for it to make sense, reading the bible without a strong sense of the symbolism is like trying to do calculus without knowing algebra

there is inherent value in the texts on philosophical principle alone, but the genius of them is the metaphor is a machine of change, a path of understanding.

they all speak of how to attain peace with the Lord, on how to attain peace with the world.

there are volumes and volumes of better men than I who put all the time they had into the bible and other great monotheistic texts, some would say it takes many lifetimes to understand the secrets found within( this is why they are holy books).

but overall If mythological structures please your palette, then you might try reading them and find more than mythological structures within, perhaps you will find a way of looking at things you did not know about.

Ahh and these are exactly the type of points I am leaning towards (in my own way) Chaigidel. I ask these questions firstly to vent my own frustrations, but mostly too make people think of it themselves.

I can understand how the bible is more a set of moral stories and philosophical inquiries on how we should live, but it went about it in such a terrible way. It created this veil of subtlety, which almost seems like a satire, that fooled so many. If it was just a book aptly named 'The Chronicles of Philosophy and Morality' or something of the nature and it didn't fail to mention the probable metaphoric sense of everything within it, then the world would be so much better. But look at what religion has done to humans. War, hate, the inquisitions, the crusades. All excuses used to justify ones own actions.

Do you not count it as a mark against your own self-intellect and critical thinking that you choose to denigrate religion completely as a result of these exchanges, rather than seeking more proper knowledge? I assure you, in any rational sense being a Christian does not entail 'bible-thumping' or beating against walls.

I do, but I choose to continue to fight it in my way. Considering the majority of all religious folks I met fit the critera (in more or less extreme ways) and in all ways I have seen, the masses do as well. I say demeaning, or getting too, those masses is a bit more important than making sure I dont insult the few reasonable folks that will also, regardless of what I say, continue too be good reasonable folks.

As a Christian myself, I shudder to come across these sorts, not only for missing the point entirely -- the so-called fundamentalist type do such a disservice to the complexity and vibrancy of the faith -- but for causing uncountable headaches as I sift through the nonsense and correct their wrongs. Rest assured that they mean well ... for the most part.

Oh, I dont blame them for meaning well but I dont necessarily have to 'forgive and forget' for that.

[Scorch]

first of the bible /koran/torah are powerful texts full of knowledge--- one must simply understand the symbols for it to make sense, reading the bible without a strong sense of the symbolism is like trying to do calculus without knowing algebra

It's all well and good to point that out, and I'd probably agree with you; it's rather clear that parts of the Bible are not intended to be taken literally.

But just look at any text. Any text at all. Tell five different people 'this text is symbolic' and you'll get five different answers as to what it symbolises, how it conveys that message and which bits (if any) are symbolic and which aren't.

So then by what arbitrary line or definition do we decide which parts are symbolic and which aren't? How do we decide, if we could reach a consensus, which parts are meant to symbolise what.

I disagree with your comparison. It's like trying to do calculus without knowing algebra if every different person had a different concept of what both algebra and calculus meant, if no one could ever agree on a universal form of truth for either of those concepts, and they'd have to spend centuries arguing over the meaning of the number four to even progress past the beginning stage of solving any problem.

[motiv-8]

I dont get to talk religion much, the few friends I have that actually give a care are too stuck up their own asses in bible thumpery that it's like bashing my head against a brick wall.

Do you not count it as a mark against your own self-intellect and critical thinking that you choose to denigrate religion completely as a result of these exchanges, rather than seeking more proper knowledge? I assure you, in any rational sense being a Christian does not entail 'bible-thumping' or beating against walls.

As a Christian myself, I shudder to come across these sorts, not only for missing the point entirely -- the so-called fundamentalist type do such a disservice to the complexity and vibrancy of the faith -- but for causing uncountable headaches as I sift through the nonsense and correct their wrongs. Rest assured that they mean well ... for the most part.

[Chaigidel]

any system will be used willfully to manipulate by the human animal we seek to become what we kneel before, feigning obedience to our ideals all the while seeking to overthrow them, thus is the human such a silly creature.-- so we would use anything to project our brutality while keeping our identity-- for as we kill we kill ourselves, destroy our personae until we become the act, and when we are an action we are with god but without ourselves-- all nature is brutal and bloody, and vicious and without mercy-- we are also like this yet we buffer our consciousness with barriers that allow us to continue on and not get too involved in the god dance of death.

we want God because we seek the power that the Idea offers, we seek to ultimate control over all that we touch.

God exists without doubt, just also without doubt that we cannot hope to understand this thing, which we call god-- but it is invariably something; something that all men and women and trees and dogs and cats and rabbits and crickets feel, a feeling of being here, now, with god.--- it is what must be, and so it shall be.

all this nonsense I learned from reading the bible ; you can judge for yourself whether or not it is nonsense.

[gambit]

any system will be used willfully to manipulate by the human animal we seek to become what we kneel before, feigning obedience to our ideals all the while seeking to overthrow them, thus is the human such a silly creature.-- so we would use anything to project our brutality while keeping our identity-- for as we kill we kill ourselves, destroy our personae until we become the act, and when we are an action we are with god but without ourselves-- all nature is brutal and bloody, and vicious and without mercy-- we are also like this yet we buffer our consciousness with barriers that allow us to continue on and not get too involved in the god dance of death.

Its true any system can be. Thats why I prefer raw philosphy and morals. There is no exceptions. There is no excuses. There is no ways to (mis)interpret it. While I believe in the exception to the rule, usually its an obvious and defined exception, rather than a simple system that any politician can manipulate with a web of subtleties and lies.

we want God because we seek the power that the Idea offers, we seek to ultimate control over all that we touch.

God exists without doubt, just also without doubt that we cannot hope to understand this thing, which we call god-- but it is invariably something; something that all men and women and trees and dogs and cats and rabbits and crickets feel, a feeling of being here, now, with god.--- it is what must be, and so it shall be.

all this nonsense I learned from reading the bible ; you can judge for yourself whether or not it is nonsense.

I dont believe there is a God, but there is a kind of believable logic in what you say.

[motiv-8]

So then by what arbitrary line or definition do we decide which parts are symbolic and which aren't? How do we decide, if we could reach a consensus, which parts are meant to symbolise what.

That's why there's a Church. Or, as in Islam, that's why there are five Sunni schools of thought.

[Scorch]

That's why there's a Church. Or, as in Islam, that's why there are five Sunni schools of thought.

Which church, then? The Catholic Church? The Church of England? The Protestant Church? Which of them is right, in this search for the absolute truth of symbolism behind the stories of the Bible?

The simple answer is that there isn't any absolute truth behind the symbolism of the Bible, because everyone will interpret it differently, to their own ends and based on their own experience.

[motiv-8]

Which church, then? The Catholic Church? The Church of England? The Protestant Church? Which of them is right, in this search for the absolute truth of symbolism behind the stories of the Bible?

I don't know, you could try looking in the Bible. Your question is directly answered there, Matthew Chapter 16.

The simple answer is that there isn't any absolute truth behind the symbolism of the Bible, because everyone will interpret it differently, to their own ends and based on their own experience.

The Bible is intended as a vessel to attaining Truth, though only so much can be understood by the finite knowledge of Man. Verily, Christianity holds that ultimate Truth can only be had in Salvation, and the Bible holds the path to Salvation by containing within itself the Word of God as spoken by Christ. You don't have to believe that, of course, because the concept of Truth is quite amorphous, I'm just giving you the particular take.

[Chaigidel]

yes but there is an absolute truth it simply protects itself from being known until it is time.

[Scorch]

yes but there is an absolute truth it simply protects itself from being known until it is time.

Oh really? My mistake, then. The book of power isn't ambiguous because it is the words of men, however inspired, and because people will see things and interpret them in a different light every time, and thus because there is no real attainable and universal or absolute truth in the symbolism of the bible, but because it's protecting itself from being known, for one reason or another, until somehow it will magically appear less ambiguous.

[Chaigidel]

yes your correct it is your mistake--- just because you cant see the pattern ; you think it empty of pattern.

god repeats itself endlessly in all ways; thus all things yield the pattern; the holy books are merely instruments by which you may divine the purpose; but you can just as easily find it in a casting of bones, or a pile of fresh entrails. or the rythmic madness of the dispossessed

[Chaigidel]

selah we all find the same emptiness and weep, that is the gate that only the chosen may pass.

[gambit]

that is the gate that only the chosen may pass.

That seems a bit elitist for a God who loves us all equally.

[motiv-8]

That seems a bit elitist for a God who loves us all equally.

That's why it's not up to God, it's up to to the individual person.