Religion: A philosophical Query

[Ryan Industries]

:hmmm:What is it about religion that drives individuals to genocide? To murder? What is it in Human Nature that makes us willing to kill for an idea? This and more in...

THE TOPIC THAT WILL MOST PROBABLY END IN FLAMING
All sarcasm aside I'm sure the TW forums are alot more mature than the last site I posted this query at...

Anyway As I was saying, so many people have died in the name of religion, untold billions of human lives snuffed out in the name of Allah, or Muhamed or jesus or god... From the Crusades to the Jihad to the inquisition...

Is it fear of being proved wrong? Is it terror that deep down inside one might be misguided? Is that what leads us to butcher our fellow man in the name of ideals? What is it that leads one to rip out a man's still beating heart in the act of appeasing the gods? Is it the need for others to share that faith that leads others to butcher and enslave those same exacutioners?

Your thoughts gentlemen

[Rich86]

I'm sure the TT forums are alot more mature than the last site I posted this query at...

[Ryan Industries]

Yeah yeah Grin all you want I got flamed to practicaly for using big words >.<

[chriscase]

:hmmm:What is it about religion that drives individuals to genocide? To murder? What is it in Human Nature that makes us willing to kill for an idea? This and more in...

All sarcasm aside I'm sure the TW forums are alot more mature than the last site I posted this query at...

Anyway As I was saying, so many people have died in the name of religion, untold billions of human lives snuffed out in the name of Allah, or Muhamed or jesus or god... From the Crusades to the Jihad to the inquisition...

Is it fear of being proved wrong? Is it terror that deep down inside one might be misguided? Is that what leads us to butcher our fellow man in the name of ideals? What is it that leads one to rip out a man's still beating heart in the act of appeasing the gods? Is it the need for others to share that faith that leads others to butcher and enslave those same exacutioners?

Your thoughts gentlemen

On the face of it, I have to object to the notion that all religions can be understood in the same way. Following your examples, the Crusades and preColumbian sacrifice rituals can hardly be understood in the same way, because the cultures that featured them were very different, separated by vast gulfs of language and territory. It's doubtful anyone knows enough about the Aztecs to make a really good case whether they were like Medieval Christians at all.

When someone wants to generalize about all religions, it's extremely unlikely anything informative is going to come out of the discussion. You may as well leave religion out of the question and ask whether humans have always treated each other with brutality, and if so, why. Or ask the (perhaps) more interesting question why modern humans are so squeamish about it when our history is, for the most part, a gruesome bloodbath.

[Ryan Industries]

On the face of it, I have to object to the notion that all religions can be understood in the same way. Following your examples, the Crusades and preColumbian sacrifice rituals can hardly be understood in the same way, because the cultures that featured them were very different, separated by vast gulfs of language and territory. It's doubtful anyone knows enough about the Aztecs to make a really good case whether they were like Medieval Christians at all.

When someone wants to generalize about all religions, it's extremely unlikely anything informative is going to come out of the discussion. You may as well leave religion out of the question and ask whether humans have always treated each other with brutality, and if so, why. Or ask the (perhaps) more interesting question why modern humans are so squeamish about it when our history is, for the most part, a gruesome bloodbath.

Fair enough, however regardless of the people or whom the relgion appeals to, all have resulted and are based upon murder bloodshed and genocide. I merely ask what it is in humn nature that makes us willing to kill and destroy in the name of "God", be it eternal reward (Virgins and the whatnot) Or to escape a painful death and eternity in hell...

[chriscase]

Fair enough, however regardless of the people or whom the relgion appeals to, all have resulted and are based upon murder bloodshed and genocide. I merely ask what it is in humn nature that makes us willing to kill and destroy in the name of "God", be it eternal reward (Virgins and the whatnot) Or to escape a painful death and eternity in hell...

But how do you really know what it meant to an Aztec priest to perform a ritual human sacrifice? For all we know, it meant something totally different.

[Ryan Industries]

But how do you really know what it meant to an Aztec priest to perform a ritual human sacrifice? For all we know, it meant something totally different.

Allright Fair enough, we understand so little about the aztecs that it isnt really the best of examples... I was merely throwing that out there to point out that all religions, to some extent have roots bases in violence

Lets switch bases, take the ongoing jihad in the middle east, Millions of Shiates and Sunis (spelling) and jews have been killed in the name of allah. Why should the people die other than to appease the gods? While there is the matter of palestein that would result in the spilling of the jews blood, antihebrew violence has been extremely prominent in that region even since the roman era... so what is it that makes one kill in the name of his or her god?

[Denny Crane!]

In truth it is to general and at the same time to specific. Religion is just one aspect of tribalism and the human tendency to dominate and aquire power which then can lead to genocide.

So you can include nationalism and patriotism in there, when your asking these questions have you questioned your allegiance to your country or your local football team? Because in essence they are one and the same and that is your allegiance because of your accidental origin of birth to a localised abstract concept.

[Ryan Industries]

In truth it is to general and at the same time to specific. Religion is just one aspect of tribalism and the human tendency to dominate and aquire power which then can lead to genocide.

So you can include nationalism and patriotism in there, when your asking these questions have you questioned your allegiance to your country or your local football team? Because in essence they are one and the same and that is your allegiance because of your accidental origin of birth to a localised abstract concept.

Excellent point, however from what Ive seen read and expierenced loyalty to one's country does not take precendence over one's god. I.E. if somehow Mike Huckabee became president and changed the government to reflect the bible, MANY jews would leave the country to avoid persacution at the hands of extremists. while many might have been loyal patriots, when things change that go agains their religion they leave in search of a place to it their beliefs.

Do you understand what I mean?

[Denny Crane!]

Excellent point, however from what Ive seen read and expierenced loyalty to one's country does not take precendence over one's god.

Which is irrelevant when they are rooted in the same psychological need, desire, mindset and philosophical nature. They are all truly irrational, it simply depends on your particular focus and which you are ideologically trained to hate enough for.

In that we have seen the biggest massacres enacted in history in the name of political ideology that had nothing whatsoever to do with religion. The crusades aren't even a blip on the map in comparison to the world wars and communist massacres.

It is simply whatever would cause a man to become so corrupt that he would kill for illogical irrational reasons.

Yes its not unknown for people to die over hatred of another persons football team. One death is enough to the person who died. It also aptly proves my point.

[Ryan Industries]

True, while in many cases there are greater hands moving the pieces around, I am not talking about kings and queens, merely the common folk. What would drive, oh lets take a Med total war example, one of the pilgrims or zealots. What is it about religion that drives them half way across the world, braving danger disease and eath, to come to the holy land so that they might kill those who dont believe in their religion? I understand the Crusades were nothing but a sham maneuvered by the pope and other european leaders, but what would drive the common man to commit such acts of violence... I understand redemptation.... perhaps that is why most zealots are driven to insanity?

And thats another excellent point by the way, forgive me I am somewhat of an amature debator, no time to learn like the present right?

[Denny Crane!]

True, while in many cases there are greater hands moving the pieces around, I am not talking about kings and queens, merely the common folk. What would drive, oh lets take a Med total war example, one of the pilgrims or zealots. What is it about religion that drives them half way across the world, braving danger disease and eath, to come to the holy land so that they might kill those who dont believe in their religion? I understand the Crusades were nothing but a sham maneuvered by the pope and other european leaders, but what would drive the common man to commit such acts of violence... I understand redemptation.... perhaps that is why most zealots are driven to insanity?

And thats another excellent point by the way, forgive me I am somewhat of an amature debator, no time to learn like the present right?

Its the same thing that would drive 57000 people to charge machine guns and die in the battle of the Somme, and for the commander to shoot anyone including 14 year old children if they don't want to.

Its the exact same thing driving it.

[chriscase]

Its the same thing that would drive 57000 people to charge machine guns and die in the battle of the Somme, and for the commander to shoot anyone including 14 year old children if they don't want to.

Its the exact same thing driving it.

So,... what about my question?

You may as well leave religion out of the question and ask whether humans have always treated each other with brutality, and if so, why. Or ask the (perhaps) more interesting question why modern humans are so squeamish about it when our history is, for the most part, a gruesome bloodbath.

[Denny Crane!]

So,... what about my question?

I'm not particularly squeamish about it and I do think I've answered the question and I don't think its something random at all. Humans are creatures that have been subject to evolution, if we were indiscriminate killing machines then it would be inherited behaviour and natural, and I daresay we wouldn't have progressed the same way and morality could not exist (which is a bit of a tangental leap but I can get to that later).

I don't accept its natural so I automatically start seeking the cause of the symptoms, what causes war and genocide.

So before the debate can progress, got to know whether you think genocide and premeditated murder are natural inheritable behavourial traits.

[Serious Spamurai]

People always finds a reason to kill one another, it is what man does. Whether you believe it or not, look at the story of Cain and Abel, first and second sons of the first people. It went one generation before a man killed another, his brother. Man is doomed to fight his brother.