Pakistan Defends itself

[LizardLord]

Witht he recent invasion of the US troops into Pakistan without the governments approval, it has now come to light that Americans are scared of entering a country when you fire shots in the air.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7396366.stm

I think its time for Pakistan to say no to US and do it themselves. They have fought there before and many have become a hero by dying there. This is Pakistan they are trying to enter and we can clean house by ourselves.

[StarDreamer]

Witht he recent invasion of the US troops into Pakistan without the governments approval, it has now come to light that Americans are scared of entering a country when you fire shots in the air.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7396366.stm
I think its time for Pakistan to say no to US and do it themselves. They have fought there before and many have become a hero by dying there. This is Pakistan they are trying to enter and we can clean house by ourselves.

Unfortunately Pakistan hasn't been able to clean out the Talibans from the border area. So I've yet to see proof that Pakistan can in fact clean it up themselves.

But the basis of this topic is true. You shouldn't enter a country with military forces uninvited.

[Bleda]

The Pakistanis aren't cleaning house at all. That boarder region is a semi-autonomous region because its too hostile for the Pakistanis to exercise effective control. For example, if Osama was found to hiding in a shed in the region, I would see no reason to not send forces in there and eliminate him. Pakistan is a less than desirable ally in the region.

[attilavolciak07]

They have every right to do that, the US has no right to jump over the border kill some people (usually civilians) and then leave.

[PointOfViewGun]

Well, Americans are not good at cleaning Taliban and Al Queda too.

[Shi Huangdi]

Well, Americans are not good at cleaning Taliban and Al Queda too.

Yes we are. Look at Iraq, where we've got al-Qaeda on the run and at its wits' end. And pretty soon we'll have more troops in Afghanistan and we'll be making the same kind of progress there.

And we had every right to enter Pakistani territory and fight the Taliban. If the Pakistanis refuse to pull their weight in this war, or if they are incapable of doing better, then we need to do what's necessary to defend American interests and our allied Afghan government.

[Каие]

Yes we are. Look at Iraq, where we've got al-Qaeda on the run and at its wits' end.

But you brought them there in the first place. You can't make a mess then congratulate yourself for getting a towel and cleaning most of it up.

[Heinz Guderian]

And we had every right to enter Pakistani territory and fight the Taliban. If the Pakistanis refuse to pull their weight in this war, or if they are incapable of doing better, then we need to do what's necessary to defend American interests and our allied Afghan government.

What is more important: American interests or the stabilisation of a nuclear weapons country which is taking tentative hard won steps towards democracy?

[Osceola]

[QUOTE=Beren Erchamion;3683065]Yes we are. Look at Iraq, where we've got al-Qaeda on the run and at its wits' end. And pretty soon we'll have more troops in Afghanistan and we'll be making the same kind of progress there.
/QUOTE]

Al-Qaeda in Iraq is about as Al-Qaeda as Aryan Nation is SS..

[Gumpfendorfer]

Agreed, the wisdom of it is bleh because there is no ok we are doing this to achieve what exactly. Bombing simply to say there is no safe haven clearly isnt going to "win" this conflict unless there is something more to it. Im hoping Petrasus when he takes over will have better ideas for Afganistan like he did in Iraq.

Don't put your hope too much on the miracle man. The key factor in Iraq was Al Qaida attacking the Tribal leaders, Petraeus anticipated on it. The surge itself just meant some more offensive capability. The lack of any viable government in Afghanistan makes the situation in Afghanistan much worse than Iraq. And undoing the mess created since 2001 will take much longer and will need the cooperation of many of the actors involved over which the Americans have either failed to get control or never had any control.

[Caelius]

Wow, looking back at the last page its as if no one read what I talked about before....

The amount of people posting on this thread who have no grasp of the geo-political forces at work in this is mind-boggling not surprising.

The US and Pakistan have had an under-the-table agreement on these types of raids for quite some time now. With regards to this incident the US told the Pakistani Government it was planning raids across the border and Pakistan (as it always has done) looked the other way on them.

Its only as a result of this spilling over into the mainstream news that the Pakistani government, not to appear weak before the vying domestic factions and influences within the country, has appeared to be so outraged.

Seriously though the US has been staging these kinds of raids into that Northwestern area of Pakistan for years. Pakistani forces have consistently never cared for them unless they got into the media.

The country is effectively a joint US/Chinese proxy, and its government sure as hell isn't going to start a shooting war with a Superpower.

[danzig]

Don't put your hope too much on the miracle man. The key factor in Iraq was Al Qaida attacking the Tribal leaders, Petraeus anticipated on it. The surge itself just meant some more offensive capability. The lack of any viable government in Afghanistan makes the situation in Afghanistan much worse than Iraq. And undoing the mess created since 2001 will take much longer and will need the cooperation of many of the actors involved over which the Americans have either failed to get control or never had any control.

Oh Im not but the fact is he has shown a keen view on such things that the results speak for themselves so he cant make it worse he can only improve it...but yeah it might be too much to ask for him to be able to turn it around like Iraq.

[LoZz]

Yes we are. Look at Iraq, where we've got al-Qaeda on the run and at its wits' end. And pretty soon we'll have more troops in Afghanistan and we'll be making the same kind of progress there.

And we had every right to enter Pakistani territory and fight the Taliban. If the Pakistanis refuse to pull their weight in this war, or if they are incapable of doing better, then we need to do what's necessary to defend American interests and our allied Afghan government.

the us can only enter pakistan with permission from the pakistani's themselves. its not a right it is a privilege.

sadam didnt actually like al-qaeda and they where not allowed in iraq.

[Gumpfendorfer]

The country is effectively a joint US/Chinese proxy, and its government sure as hell isn't going to start a shooting war with a Superpower

I'd wish life was that simple. They are quite a few non state actors hell bent on starting a shooting war, as well as in the political/military establishment.
And China is Pakistan's long term ally, not the US. One must bear that in mind. The strategic interest of Pakistan is closer to China's interest in the region. The USA has very little leverage other than filling the pockets of the military and corrupt politicians.

Oh Im not but the fact is he has shown a keen view on such things that the results speak for themselves so he cant make it worse he can only improve it...but yeah it might be too much to ask for him to be able to turn it around like Iraq.

Well, at least, after all those years, someone with a working brain has been put in the right place, so let's light a candle.

[patrick1191]

And US can?

Last time i checked the U.S does quite a lot in Afghanistan...

[Bleda]

Civilians are civilians until they toss that hand grenade or detonate that roadside bomb. The Taliban fighters who mask themselves amongst the population and use civilians as a human shield are the real monsters. Its tragedy and a crime when civilians are killed, but rest assured the US govt. for all its supposed evil doing conspiracies, isn't going to find a tactical advantage in blowing up civilians.

[Erik]

Since the Pakistani government denies Pakistani soldiers were involved, I wonder if it wasn't just Taliban or tribal fighters who stopped the US soldiers from entering.
The government could be lying or simple not knowing, though.

[pwf224]

Despite all the conspiracy theories, the US doesn't seek to kill random civilians. The reason they are starting to make cross border raids is because this is a staging area for attacks on their troops in Afghanistan. The tribal regions in Pakistan are so autonomous it is hard to even consider it Pakistan. Although it is unethical and technically illegal according to the geneva convention, it only makes sense when your enemy is hiding out across the border and launching attacks on you to launch raids on them. The terrorists are wrong for hding in another country and using it as a safe zone. The US doesn't choose where the terrorists it attacks hide out, they only chase them and try to neutralize the threat.

[Каие]

wow, the US army tried to walk into Pakistan uninvited over a number of hours by force?

[Mikelus Trento]

wow, the US army tried to walk into Pakistan uninvited over a number of hours by force?

I was a little surprised to hear this. Considering the terrain is so rugged and all, I'm surprised they were walking.