The Chinese are trying to ban Ramadan

[Burnum]

This is an attack by Chinese Communists on Islam.



Tell how is repression of our Religion, fighting terrorism?

[Thanatos]

You're misunderstanding this. The Chinese persecute anyone and anything that get so big it might upset the Party.

[Burnum]

You're misunderstanding this. The Chinese persecute anyone and anything that get so big it might upset the Party.

Regardless, it is an attack on the very pillars of Islam.

Also, I criticize the Muslim nations that wait and do nothing. Especially, Iran and Saudi Arabia and the Muslim members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, who have diplomatic with China.

[Rumilus]

Also, I criticize the Muslim nations that wait and do nothing. Especially, Iran and Saudi Arabia and the Muslim members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, who have diplomatic with China.

While I think what China is doing is wrong, I dont really think either Iran or Saudi Arabia have any grounds to criticise China. Frankly I can think of much more horrible things to criticise in these three countries than dresscodes, among some that come to my mind range from torture to jailing people who want to live differently or who criticise the goverment to threath of death penalty if you choose to not believe certain way anymore.

But none of that seems to particularly bother anyone, thus why should dresscodes and forcing people to eat matter either?

[Burnum]

I often doubt that word. It could equally be applied to the firebombing of Germany as to the massacres committed by the Janjaweed.

The Firebombing of Germany, not so much.

But the Janjaweed have repeatedly tried to wipe out African (Muslim and Nonmuslim) Minorities, so they committed the crime of genocide.

And BTW, most 'academic scholars' these days are brainwashed leftie pinko submissives and butt- ed dhimmis. I don't care what they lecture.

Anti-intellectualismdoesn't suit you, boofhead or perhaps it does.

[i]Though largely forgotten, the bloody rebellion caused the death of up to a million people in Yunnan.[13] Many adherents to the Yunnanese Muslim cause were persecuted by the imperial mandarins. Wholesale massacres of Yunnanese Muslims followed. Many fled with their families across the Burmese border and took refuge in the Wa State where, about 1875, they set up the exclusively Hui town of Panglong.[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthay_Rebellion#cite_note-13"][14]

Don't forget this part, not just the Adherents of Yunnansese self-determination were killed.

'Self-determination' for every group is not a human right.

Yes, it is.

1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

In the end it would create as many bloody wars as the Devil himself would like to.

Aboriginal were given self-determination, how many have we started?

I think muslims ARE right about a few things. But I believe that most of the time, when their religious texts are quoted as their justification rather than any shred of common-sense, then they are mostly wrong

Don't you follow the Bible?

In fact, when the Koran is quoted as a reason for any political, philosophical or moral stance, I think they are always wrong.

Because it came from the Qur’an?

You know, Burnum, why should the Chinese give a about your 5 pillars?

"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship, and observance."

Guess where that came from?

Do you give a about THEIR governing principles?

They can govern the way they choose, as long as it doesn't infringe on their Human rights.

So what's the difference

I am not an oppressive nation, who deny even the most freedoms.

Aren't they looking after the interests of the people of the entire nation of over a billion people of ethnic diversity,

The communist party doesn't look after the interests of the Chinese, it's a joke to even suggest it. They look after themselves.

while you are only concerned with the interests of the few?

How does the Average Chinese citizens benefit from the Occupation of East Turkestan?

Who don't even share your ethnicity, or even your history?

So in order to defend the oppressed, I must share the same skin color as those that are being oppressed?

[boofhead]

China also has little compassion for separatists, nor for terrorist attacks upon the state.

Remember, China suffered a muslim rebellion in the 1860s to 70s that cost approx. 2 million dead.And between 1650 and 1880, about 12 million dead as a result of muslim uprisings.

So basically, China has suffered more from Islam than any other nation of earth , regarding bloodshed.

I don't really see how the Chinese can ban a month anyway, or force a person to eat, so I wouldn't be too offended. I'd be more concerned at the Palestinian persecution of Christians in Bethlehem and Samaria, quite frankly. Or the persecutions and discriminations committed by other Islamic nations in the world towards minorities.

[Burnum]

China also has little compassion for separatists, nor for terrorist attacks upon the state.

It's not separatists that is suffering from this.

Remember, China suffered a muslim rebellion in the 1860s to 70s that cost approx. 2 million dead

Which was actually a genocide of Muslims:
During the mid-nineteenth century, the Muslims and the Miao people of China revolted against the Qing Dynasty, most notably in the Dungan revolt Panthay rebellion 1856-1873) in Yunnan. These little known revolts were suppressed by the Manchu government in a manner that amounts to genocide,[37][38][39][40] killing a million people in the Panthay rebellion,[41][42] several million in the Dungan revolt[42] and five million in the suppression of Miao people in Guizhou.[42] A "washing off the Muslims"(洗回 (xi Hui)) policy had been long advocated by officials in the Manchu government.[43]

So basically, China has suffered more from Islam than any other nation of earth , regarding bloodshed.

It was repression of Muslims, very few Chinese Died.

The Chinese Imperial Government even organized anti-Muslim pogroms.

I don't really see how the Chinese can ban a month anyway, or force a person to eat, so I wouldn't be too offended

if the Chinese Government banned christian prayer, you would be in an uproar.

I'd be more concerned at the Palestinian persecution of Christians in Bethlehem and Samaria, quite frankly.

Not even close, the Palestinians and Indonesians don't regulate and oppress the Christians, to the same extent as China.

I'd be very cynical about this... more propaganda than not. The Chinese government doesn't bother itself with such things. They like to control other aspects of Xinjiang life, especially the economy and Han side of the equation, but they have a very hands-off approach to governing the Uighur side, though they do try to somewhat moderate the religion, but with very little success and very little enforcement. There is much less interference than people think... I've been in Xinjiang and have Uighur roomates, I know. There is evidence that the Han authorities, especially in Beijing, are being more tough on Uighurs coming in to live in Beijing. But this is only restricted to Beijing and mostly because of the Olympics, and it is already going back to normal.

can you offer sources that say otherwise?

[boofhead]

Which was actually a genocide of Muslims: It was repression of Muslims, very few Chinese Died.

You do seem to love that word, 'genocide'.

It would have been many, many thousands of nun-muslim dead. And weren't these muslims Chinese, anyway? These were wars, not just massacres. And why did they happen? Because once again muslims wanted an Islamic State, just like we see in every corner of the world now, from the Philippines to Russia to Africa. It's the same thing.

if the Chinese Government banned christian prayer, you would be in an uproar.

No. I don't like the Saudis for example, bunch of s, but I'm not in 'uproar'. And by the way, the Communist Chinese have always persecuted Christians to one extent or the other. You can google it if you like.

[hellheaven1987]

Which was actually a genocide of Muslims:
During the mid-nineteenth century, the Muslims and the Miao people of China revolted against the Qing Dynasty, most notably in the Dungan revolt Panthay rebellion 1856-1873) in Yunnan. These little known revolts were suppressed by the Manchu government in a manner that amounts to genocide,[37][38][39][40] killing a million people in the Panthay rebellion,[41][42] several million in the Dungan revolt[42] and five million in the suppression of Miao people in Guizhou.[42] A "washing off the Muslims"(洗回 (xi Hui)) policy had been long advocated by officials in the Manchu government.[43]

... Just point out one thing, Qing government viewed those as rebels and it was nothing to do with their religion.

Besides, those rebels were rather rised up for Nationalism, not for their religion (there were Muslim long before Manchurian came).

[Siblesz]

I'd be very cynical about this... more exagerations than not. The Chinese government doesn't bother itself with such things... They like to control other aspects of Xinjiang life, especially the economy and Han side of the equation, but they have a very hands-off approach to governing the Uighur side, though they do try to somewhat moderate the religion, but with very little success and very little enforcement. Every year there are radical elements in the Han side that attempt to moderate the religion, but the radical Han elements really don't have that much influence to effect any change and are more often than not tamed by the moderate Han elements. There is much less interference than people think... I've been in Xinjiang and have Uighur roomates, I know. There is evidence that the Han authorities in Beijing are being more tough on Uighurs coming in to live in Beijing. But this is only restricted to Beijing and mostly because of the Olympics, and it is already going back to normal.

[Siblesz]

can you offer sources that say otherwise?

I rely on first-hand sources, and I tell you, the situation is not as restrictive as it is painted in the MSM. It is restrictive, to be sure... especially on paper. But when enacted, there is a huge discrepancy between what is said and what is done.

[Burnum]

I rely on first-hand sources, and I tell you, the situation is not as restrictive as it is painted in the MSM. It is restrictive, to be sure... especially on paper. But when enacted, there is a huge discrepancy between what is said and what is done.

You will forgive me for being skeptical of what a man claims, without offering sources, over the internet. Regardless, it is Communist China's official position and should we be any less critical because they can't enforce their policies?

You do seem to love that word, 'genocide'.

Even though, academic scholars class it as genocide you still doubt it? In your point of view, can Muslim be a victim or do deserve everything we get?

And weren't these muslims Chinese, anyway?

That's who the Imperial government persecuted and massacred. You make assumptions and even argue them and it's pretty obvious that you lack even basic facts about the conflicts.

These were wars, not just massacres

Massacres made up a large part of the conflict:


Though largely forgotten, the bloody rebellion caused the death of up to a million people in Yunnan.[13] Many adherents to the Yunnanese Muslim cause were persecuted by the imperial mandarins. Wholesale massacres of Yunnanese Muslims followed. Many fled with their families across the Burmese border and took refuge in the Wa State where, about 1875, they set up the exclusively Hui town of Panglong.[14]

And why did they happen? Because once again muslims wanted an Islamic State,

And? Didn't they have the right to self determination? The right not to be oppressed, their ideals were similar to that of Americans in their revolutionary war.

, just like we see in every corner of the world now, from the Philippines to Russia to Africa. It's the same thing.

It's a pity, you can't see past your prejudice and admit that Muslims might be right.

[Siblesz]

You will forgive me for being skeptical of what a man claims, without offering sources, over the internet. Regardless, it is Communist China's official position and should we be any less critical because they can't enforce their policies?

China's communists of course want to pacify Xinjiang... whatever they mean by that is the question. Sometimes the Chinese can be extremely understanding and considerate, but sometimes they react irrationally. If they continue on the path that they've been on for the past twenty years, then there won't be any major problems in Xinjiang. But if for some reason the radical elements of the party start enforcing their radical doctrines of "reforming" Xinjiang Islam, then you'll see new radical Uighur elements become more powerful in opposition to the new Chinese Han radicals. Radicals feed from each other... useful lesson to learn in history. Never fight fire with fire. For now, there is very little evidence that the more radical Chinese Han element has taken power, so one must first wait and see what will happen before making judgment. You never know til' you know.

[thatguy]

I'm not surprised.
Its China, they want to ban everything they dont like.

[boofhead]

Even though, academic scholars class it as genocide you still doubt it?

I often doubt that word. It could equally be applied to the firebombing of Germany as to the massacres committed by the Janjaweed. And BTW, most 'academic scholars' these days are brainwashed leftie pinko submissives and butt- ed dhimmis. I don't care what they lecture.

In your point of view, can Muslim be a victim or do deserve everything we get?

Sure a muslim can be a victim.

[I]Though largely forgotten, the bloody rebellion caused the death of up to a million people in Yunnan.[13] Many adherents to the Yunnanese Muslim cause were persecuted by the imperial mandarins. Wholesale massacres of Yunnanese Muslims followed. Many fled with their families across the Burmese border and took refuge in the Wa State where, about 1875, they set up the exclusively Hui town of Panglong.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthay_Rebellion#cite_note-13"][14]

Don't forget the bolded part, Burnum.

And? Didn't they have the right to self determination? The right not to be oppressed, their ideals were similar to that of Americans in their revolutionary war.

'Self-determination' for every group is not a human right. In the end it would create as many bloody wars as the Devil himself would like to. Would you honestly want the planet divided into thousands of independent communities with differences from their neighbours? We have sovereign nations for a reason. Don't be so silly. No, not every group has a right to self-determination.

It's a pity, you can't see past your prejudice and admit that Muslims might be right.

I think muslims ARE right about a few things. But I believe that most of the time, when their religious texts are quoted as their justification rather than any shred of common-sense, then they are mostly wrong. In fact, when the Koran is quoted as a reason for any political, philosophical or moral stance, I think they are always wrong.

You know, Burnum, why should the Chinese give a about your 5 pillars?

Do you give a about THEIR governing principles? Obviously not. So what's the difference? That yours are religious and theirs are political? Aren't they looking after the interests of the people of the entire nation of over a billion people of ethnic diversity, while you are only concerned with the interests of the few? Who don't even share your ethnicity, or even your history?

Why do you care? I know why. Because of Islam

[Furious Mental]

Genocide means deliberately wholly or partially biologically destroying a national, religious, ethnic or racial group. Area bombing in World War Two doesn't fit that description. Neither does the campaign of state terror or state-orchestrated terror in Darfur, which is forced displacement. That is ethnic cleansing and a crime against humanity but not genocide. Obviously the suppression of the Hui rebellion was what would now be called a crime against humanity. The policy of discrimination which followed it was also a crime against humanity. I don't think anyone here even has the facts which one would need to know in order to say that it was or wasn't genocide specifically, but it doesn't really matter. The fact that it wasn't genocide doesn't mean it wouldn't offend any reasonable moral standard if the same thing were done today.

By the same token, the fact that worse human rights abuses are committed in China and elsewhere doesn't change the fact that the policy (which has been fairly widely reported - I am surprised some people actually think it is the invention of someone on Youtube) violates freedom of religion and is therefore reprehensible for that reason alone. And the fact that Muslim countries have abysmal human rights records cannot justify human rights abuses by the Chinese government and Communist Party - human rights belong to individual persons by virtue of their being human, and they are inviolable. They are not reciprocal rights and even if they were, the link between a Palestinian militia persecuting Christians and the Chinese government persecuting Muslims is so tenuous that neither can logically have any bearing on the other.

[Rumilus]

And the fact that Muslim countries have abysmal human rights records cannot justify human rights abuses by the Chinese government and Communist Party

It doesnt justify it, but only criticising Chinese actions against one group out of who knows how many that suffer in China, because of the victim groups religion, while eagerly ignoring misery and abuses caused by the countries that should champion for these victims reeks wrongness to me.

[Cicero2]

hmmm, Chinese requiring to "shave beards" and "remove veils."


Oh the horror.

[Zephyrus]

Should I strap on my explosive-lined kevlar vest now or later?

[The Cobra]

They want to ban Ramadan ?

This is outrageous.