Deus lo vult!!!!

[Mikelus Trento]

"It is God's will!!"

I'm sure most know that latin expression is a residue of the Crusade era, when Christians and Muslims battled each other for a couple hundred years, both sides exhorting their armies to fight in the name of "god"

Many times over the past few years we have heard the claim that Islam is too militant, that it is the reason there is so much turmoil in the Middle East.
It is easy enough to believe when the extremists of that faith regularly use words like "jihad".

One of the US VP candidates is quoted as saying our incursion into Iraq was "god's will".

opinion:
I have news for this lady, when American soldiers go in harm's way they do it for their country. To imply otherwise is at best, insensitive to the modern day world in which we live, and at worst a distinct example of how this person views the sanctity of one of the tenets of America....the separation of church and state. To her evidently, there is no separation.

When she tries to shrug it off by explaining that Abraham Lincoln also used that phrase, she demonstrates at best a lack of historical accuracy and at worst an attempt to decieve listeners by failing to mention that both sides in the war Lincoln presided over worshipped the same god. (end opinion)


So what do you all think? Is the guiding principle of separation of church and state important and there for a reason, or do you think the USA has the right to invoke the deus lo vult reason for going to war? (keep in mind the historical signifcance that using it during this particular conflict is especially
relevant, historically).

[Delvecchio1975]

i think western democracies cannot be sustained without two types of separations: one is the separation of judicial, legislative and executive powers and the other is the separation of state and religion. They both came under pressure after 9/11, mainly in the united states, but - in my case more worryingly - also in europe over the last few years, especially the first type (religion is only just started clawing back after near total extinction).

I believe the neocons political stream is in this way breaking down what it is trying to defend.

BTW, does anyone know have statistics on religions in the US army?

[Nikos]

It was only the Catholic Christians that waged the Crusades the Orthodox Christians got screwed over as well.

[Mikelus Trento]

It was only the Catholic Christians that waged the Crusades the Orthodox Christians got screwed over as well.

I ALMOST said catholics as I was making the post, but wasn't sure enough of my knowledge to do so.

Thanks for pointing it out.

[Delvecchio1975]

It was only the Catholic Christians that waged the Crusades the Orthodox Christians got screwed over as well.

not because they were orthodox, though. on the first crusade quite the opposite, even. the byzantines regained large tracts of anatolya, remember?
in later crusades they came under fire mostly because of political reasons (venice vs. byzantium)

[Dave Scarface]

@Mikelus Trento,

Damn I thought this was the Deus lo vult mod feedback thread there for a minute (kidding) Yeah I saw Sarah palin saying today that invading Iraq was a "task from god" or something outrageous. This isn't the first time we have heard the Bush administration claim god is on their side of course. Also it seems everyone who isn't on side with america is part of the axis of evil.

Of course these leaders of our country all claim to be christian and use this to gain the morale high ground when they go to war. But lets suppose for a minute their was a heaven and a hell. George Bush and Tony Blair, would be heading only to one place, Hell. They are war mongerers and have blood on their hands. They decieve the voters, the very people that put them in power to go to war. If they really were men speaking for god they would not need to tell so much BS.

Dave

[Mikelus Trento]

@Mikelus Trento,

Damn I thought this was the Deus lo vult mod feedback thread there for a minute (kidding) Yeah I saw Sarah palin saying today that invading Iraq was a "task from god" or something outrageous. This isn't the first time we have heard the Bush administration claim god is on their side of course. Also it seems everyone who isn't on side with america is part of the axis of evil.

Of course these leaders of our country all claim to be christian and use this to gain the morale high ground when they go to war. But lets suppose for a minute their was a heaven and a hell. George bush and Tony Blair, would be heading only to one place, Hell. They are war mongers and have blood on their hands. They decieve the voters, the very people that put them in power to go to war. If they really were men of god they would not need to tell so much BS.

Dave

If I was God I would give Tony Blair a pass on his decision.

[Heinz Guderian]

@Mikelus Trento,

Damn I thought this was the Deus lo vult mod feedback thread there for a minute (kidding) Yeah I saw Sarah palin saying today that invading Iraq was a "task from god" or something outrageous. This isn't the first time we have heard the Bush administration claim god is on their side of course. Also it seems everyone who isn't on side with america is part of the axis of evil.

Of course these leaders of our country all claim to be christian and use this to gain the morale high ground when they go to war. But lets suppose for a minute their was a heaven and a hell. George Bush and Tony Blair, would be heading only to one place, Hell. They are war mongerers and have blood on their hands. They decieve the voters, the very people that put them in power to go to war. If they really were men speaking for god they would not need to tell so much BS.

Dave

Good post and i love you for your modding skillz. rep+

[The Cobra]

Deus lo vult has been replaced by the word ''freedom'', the war on terror is an alternative for the word ''crusade'', nothing has changed since medieval times.

[Dave Scarface]

Deus lo vult has been replaced by the word ''freedom'', the war on terror is an alternative for the word ''crusade'', nothing has changed since medieval times.

Exactly! and many people are still prepared to believe in this trash

Dave

[Каие]

It's damn frightening, the same rhetoric our enemies use, those in the Middle East and elsewhere...you know who i mean.

[Big War Bird]

Her is what she actually said:

“Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God. That’s what we have to make sure that we’re praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God’s plan.”

Which is pretty much the same thing Abraham Lincoln said:

"Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God’s side, for God is always right.”

[Pdguru]

There was absolutely no need for Palin (or any other person) to state that the war is anything to do with God. From what I remember it was about self protection against WMDs (which has since been proved a lie). We all know what it's about.

The fact that she did bring God into it means that she sees it as relevant (i.e. she's another "faith" nutter who seems to think it's her job to keep us into Bush's headlong rush to create the apocolypse) or it's the only way to keep the masses from wanting the war to stop. Palin, McCain and her types are stopping that by creating pressure on Amercian People that if they disagree with the war they are either anti-patriot (against the government) or, now, against God (against "good").

Wake up everyone. The interview to which this thread refers exposed Palin as the frightening little amateur she is. If there is a God, I hope it helps us survive the next few years.

[Каие]

Her is what she actually said:

“Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God. That’s what we have to make sure that we’re praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God’s plan.”

Which is pretty much the same thing Abraham Lincoln said:

"Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God’s side, for God is always right.”

That sounds like the Crusades to me.

our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God.

By the way i never knew Abraham Lincoln believed God interferes in mankind's affairs?

[Dave Scarface]

It's damn frightening, the same rhetoric our enemies use, those in the Middle East and elsewhere...you know who i mean.

Yes you are right of course, but they are religious fanatics. I expect much better from america. Please can they not try to bring god into their arguement for going to war

Good post and i love you for your modding skillz. rep+

Thanks man! a massive update for KGCM is not far off from release now. I cannot wait to release it.

Dave

[Erik]

Yes you are right of course, but they are religious fanatics. I expect much better from america. Please can they not try to bring god into their arguement for going to war

There are lots of religious fanatics in America as well.

[Wilder]

Her is what she actually said:

“Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God. That’s what we have to make sure that we’re praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God’s plan.”

Which is pretty much the same thing Abraham Lincoln said:

"Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God’s side, for God is always right.”

I'm not the type of guy to make apologies for Lincoln, but... what?

those two quotes are perhaps opposite, if anything. The former assumes God's good will toward our actions, and the latter expresses Lincoln's wish to do the right thing, regardless of rhetoric.

Jeez...


@ origional post: good point.

[Pdguru]

I'm not the type of guy to make apologies for Lincoln, but... what?

those two quotes are perhaps opposite, if anything. The former assumes God's good will toward our actions, and the latter expresses Lincoln's wish to do the right thing, regardless of rhetoric.

Jeez...


@ origional post: good point.

Indeed.

Palin said 2 things - First that the Bush Government's invasion of Iraq was a task from God. Second that she wants folks to pray that the plan being followed is God's plan. While the second statement does sound somewhat similar to Lincoln's quote, it's nullified by the first statement because she already apparently knows the war is a task from God.

Either way, as for praying that we're doing God's work - after killing tens of thousands of people - that's just pathetic.

[Dash]

Man, why can't we just have an atheist as President?

[Heinz Guderian]

Man, why can't we just have an atheist as President?

Separation of Church and State!!? You must think we're descended from monkeys or some . We Brits arent much better. Tony Blair was guided by God too. I heard he is a Catholic now and does hits for the Vatican.