Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Faith and Medicine

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default Faith and Medicine

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/09/11...ine/index.html

    ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- The doctors, nurses, pharmacists and technicians gathered around her son's crib, their faces grim. Pamela Gorman knew what they were thinking: Her son, Christopher, was about to die.


    As a newborn, Christopher Gorman was given little chance of survival. His mom calls his recovery "a miracle."

    Christopher was just a few days old and had a rare blood infection and fungal meningitis, a brain infection.

    "I could tell in their eyes they had no hope for my son," Gorman said. "They told me to prepare for his death. They told me he might not make it through the night."

    Gorman never believed the doctors. In fact, she did something she thinks annoyed these men and women of science: She prayed. She prayed all the time.

    "They made me feel ridiculous for praying so much and so hard and leaving it up to God," said Gorman, who lives in Idaho Falls, Idaho. "But I told them my son not surviving was not an option."

    When he was a month old, Christopher left the hospital. He's been healthy ever since, she says. He turns 3 next month.

    "It was a miracle," she said. "There are just things doctors can't explain. Doctors are not in control of everything. There's stuff that happens every day that they can't explain." Empowered Patient: Watch more on faith and medicine »

    A new study finds that many Americans have that same kind of faith. In the study, 57 percent of randomly surveyed adults said God's intervention could save a deathly ill family member even if physicians said treatment would be futile.

    However, just under 20 percent of doctors and other medical workers said God could reverse a helpless outcome.

    The study was published last month in Archives of Surgery and is one of many to show a "faith gap" between doctors and patients.

    Don't Miss
    Study: Many believe in divine intervention
    In Depth: Empowered Patient
    "Patients are scared to death to talk to their doctors about this issue," said Dr. Harold Koenig, co-director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at Duke University.

    Given this gap, how can you discuss God with your physician? We asked advice from Koenig and two other physicians who study faith and medicine.

    1. It's OK to ask for a doctor who also has strong religious convictions

    Koenig suggests this approach when talking to a physician: "I would say: 'My religious beliefs are very important to me and influence my medical decisions and the way I cope with illness, and I want a doctor who has those same convictions. If you don't come from that perspective, do you know a doctor you can refer me to?' "

    If you're a Christian, you might find a like-minded doctor through the ZIP code search at the Christian Medical and Dental Associations.

    2. Don't be surprised if you find No. 1 difficult to do

    "Religion is the last taboo in medicine," said Dr. Daniel Sulmasy, an internist, a Franciscan friar and director of ethics at St. Vincent's Hospital and New York Medical College in New York. "Doctors and patients talk about intimate details like sexual practices and drug use but still have this great reluctance to talk about religion."

    Sulmasy suggests not asking directly about the doctor's own religious beliefs but instead focusing on your own religious needs.

    3. It's OK to ask your doctor to pray with you

    According to a 2006 study by the University of Chicago, 53 percent of doctors surveyed said it was appropriate to pray with patients when asked.

    Health Library
    MayoClinic.com: Health Library
    This can work even when doctor and patient don't share the same faith. For example, Koenig, who's Christian, has prayed with Jewish patients. "In most cases, a general prayer asking for God's comfort, support and healing will be sufficient," he said.

    4. Be specific about your religious needs

    "If I'm a Muslim and I come to the point of dying, the hospital might need to relax the visiting rules, because it's important to have as many people as possible with me as I recite the Quran," Sulmasy said.

    "If I'm a Buddhist, it may be important to me to hear chant as I'm dying," he added. "If I'm a Catholic, I may want to receive the Sacrament of the Sick."

    5. If you believe in miracles, say so

    "Get that out in the open," advised Dr. Robert Fine, an internist and head of clinical ethics and palliative care at Baylor University Medical Center in Dallas, Texas.


    Confusion may ensue if you don't, he explains. For example, sometimes doctors think families are against removing life support at the end of life because they don't understand the medical facts, when they do understand but are waiting for a miracle.

    "Once we know that, we can have a discussion about faith," Fine said.
    Interesting article.
    But mark me well; Religion is my name;
    An angel once: but now a fury grown,
    Too often talked of, but too little known.

    -Jonathan Swift

    "There's only a few things I'd actually kill for: revenge, jewelry, Father O'Malley's weedwacker..."
    -Bender (Futurama) awesome

    Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal.
    -Immortal Technique

  2. #2
    Rich86's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    England, North-West
    Posts
    1,319

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    Interesting article but it proves only that the child survived - not that prayer had any effect whatsoever.

    It's far more likely than either a) the child was extremely lucky to survive (these things do happen) b) the doctors perhaps misdiagnosed / overestimated the seriousness of his condition.

  3. #3
    Nietzsche's Avatar Too Human
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,878

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich86 View Post
    Interesting article but it proves only that the child survived - not that prayer had any effect whatsoever.

    It's far more likely than either a) the child was extremely lucky to survive (these things do happen) b) the doctors perhaps misdiagnosed / overestimated the seriousness of his condition.
    or c) the possibility exists that there was no material cause of his recovery and this is at the very least an unexplainable recovery.

    Even dyed in the wool materialists understand that there are things that cannot be completely explained with mathematics. Even if they can be, the math was there first.
    Last edited by Nietzsche; September 12, 2008 at 12:54 PM.

  4. #4
    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Philadephia, PA
    Posts
    12,431

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    the possibility exists that there was no material cause of his recovery and this is at the very least an explainable recovery.
    No, it doesn't.

    All it proves is that the kid got better. That's it, the study didn't go any further.

    Studies have shown that intercessory prayer has no effect on a patient besides a "placebo". It may help a patient's morale.
    Last edited by Dayman; September 12, 2008 at 06:17 AM.

  5. #5
    Rich86's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    England, North-West
    Posts
    1,319

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    c) the possibility exists that there was no material cause of his recovery and this is at the very least an explainable recovery
    Ok....

    d) Santa snuck in during the night , waved an elf around and the kid got better.

    e) The kid is actually a Jedi and used 'FORCE HEAL' on itself to heal.

    f) The FSM bestowed it's blessing upon the child and it was saved.


    There are lots of 'possibilites' - but most are stupid and cannot be in anyway proven - there is no more reason to accept 'c' than d, e or f.

  6. #6
    shadepanther's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Posts
    1,407

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    Just because Doctors say that it is unlikely that it will survive, doesn't mean that it won't.
    The case could have about a 10% survival rate, it could simply be the kid was lucky to be in the 10%. But don't expect the doctors to promise that the kid will survive. They have to be realistic and prepare for the worst.



    "I reject your reality and substitute my own!" -- Adam Savage, Mythbusters

  7. #7
    Nietzsche's Avatar Too Human
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,878

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing View Post

    All it proves is that the kid got better. That's it, the study didn't go any further.
    Which is exactly what I said. Just because you get your anti-faith knickers in a twist over the slightest hint that an improbable and materially unexplainable event occurred in no way, shape, or form shows that it didn't. The list of events and stories in the universe that cannot be explained with a material cause are too long to list (Charity, Love, etc). So relax your faith hate and recognize a mystery when you see one.

    As for Rich86: if you wish to delve into absurdities be my guest. It doesn't change the fact that you nor I can find a meaning, reason, or materialist description for everything. I didn't invoke the existence or intervention of any third party as you did. I merely postulated that perhaps there are some things that our arrogance can't understand.

  8. #8
    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Philadephia, PA
    Posts
    12,431

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by Nietzsche View Post
    Which is exactly what I said. Just because you get your anti-faith knickers in a twist over the slightest hint that an improbable and materially unexplainable event occurred in no way, shape, or form shows that it didn't. The list of events and stories in the universe that cannot be explained with a material cause are too long to list (Charity, Love, etc). So relax your faith hate and recognize a mystery when you see one.
    Faith hate? You've coined a new term, a quite ridiculous one at that. Spare me the free psychoanalysis chief. And trust me, things like charity and love are quite explainable within the constraints of the material realm

  9. #9

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    The faithful parents went to the unfaithful Doctors. If God works in ways as mysterious as this then their religion looks rather foolish. In others eyes, not theirs ofcourse, which spells out the entire situation.
    "Genius never desires what does not exist."
    -Søren Kierkegaard


    ''I know everything, in that I know nothing''
    - Socrates

  10. #10
    Rich86's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    England, North-West
    Posts
    1,319

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    if you wish to delve into absurdities be my guest. It doesn't change the fact that you nor I can find a meaning, reason, or materialist description for everything. I didn't invoke the existence or intervention of any third party as you did. I merely postulated that perhaps there are some things that our arrogance can't understand.
    an absurdity is to assume "oh God did it" simply because they are unable to explain why their child lived. There are plenty of things we cannot understand, but rather than pass off the childs recovery as a 'mystery' and stick a "we just don't know....:hmmm:" sticker on it - it seems far more likely that there was a misdiagnosis, or the child simply survived - nothing strange.

  11. #11
    Nietzsche's Avatar Too Human
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,878

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing View Post
    Faith hate? You've coined a new term, a quite ridiculous one at that. Spare me the free psychoanalysis chief. And trust me, things like charity and love are quite explainable within the constraints of the material realm
    Try. If you succeed, you will be the first in the 3000 year history of philosophy. Who am I to argue with genius?

    eventhorizon: You and Ummon are two that I definitely keep my eye on. Well said.

    Rich86: if that makes you comfortable then by all means stick with it. Let me know how you feel when you have a child that is terminal. If you never even so much as whisper a hope into the unknown then you are obviously a better man than me.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by Nietzsche View Post
    If you never even so much as whisper a hope into the unknown then you are obviously a better man than me.
    So one without faith holds the highground? "Faith hate" must be a compliment then :hmmm:
    Moreover, whenever fluorescent square motion is required, it may also be employed in conjunction with the drawn reciprocation dingle arm, to reduce sinusoidal depleneration.

  13. #13
    Rich86's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    England, North-West
    Posts
    1,319

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    Let me know how you feel when you have a child that is terminal.
    Not to be rude but that is like that ridiculous "there are no atheists in foxholes" argument - which as JSM replied; is not an argument against atheism it's an argument against Foxholes.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    The point is how hard it is to talk to a doctor about faith. They scoff and God cries or something.

    Maybe the kid had a potion of healing....

    *kid rolls dice*

    "D24"

    *Fully healed*
    But mark me well; Religion is my name;
    An angel once: but now a fury grown,
    Too often talked of, but too little known.

    -Jonathan Swift

    "There's only a few things I'd actually kill for: revenge, jewelry, Father O'Malley's weedwacker..."
    -Bender (Futurama) awesome

    Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal.
    -Immortal Technique

  15. #15
    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Philadephia, PA
    Posts
    12,431

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    I don't like quoting wikipedia, but there are scientific explanations for those things.

    Biological models of sex tend to view love as a mammalian drive, much like hunger or thirst.[8] Helen Fisher, a leading expert in the topic of love, divides the experience of love into three partly-overlapping stages: lust, attraction, and attachment. Lust exposes people to others, romantic attraction encourages people to focus their energy on mating, and attachment involves tolerating the spouse long enough to rear a child into infancy.
    Lust is the initial passionate sexual desire that promotes mating, and involves the increased release of chemicals such as testosterone and estrogen. These effects rarely last more than a few weeks or months. Attraction is the more individualized and romantic desire for a specific candidate for mating, which develops out of lust as commitment to an individual mate forms. Recent studies in neuroscience have indicated that as people fall in love, the brain consistently releases a certain set of chemicals, including pheromones, dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin, which act similar to amphetamines, stimulating the brain's pleasure center and leading to side-effects such as an increased heart rate, loss of appetite and sleep, and an intense feeling of excitement. Research has indicated that this stage generally lasts from one and a half to three years.[9]
    Since the lust and attraction stages are both considered temporary, a third stage is needed to account for long-term relationships. Attachment is the bonding which promotes relationships that last for many years, and even decades. Attachment is generally based on commitments such as marriage and children, or on mutual friendship based on things like shared interests. It has been linked to higher levels of the chemicals oxytocin and vasopressin than short-term relationships have.[9] In 2005, Italian scientists at Pavia University found that a protein molecule known as the nerve growth factor (NGF) has high levels when people first fall in love, but these levels return to as they were after one year. Specifically, four neurotrophin levels, i.e. NGF, BDNF, NT-3, and NT-4, of 58 subjects who had recently fallen in love were compared with levels in a control group who were either single or already engaged in a long-term relationship. The results showed that NGF levels were significantly higher in the subjects in love than as compared to either of the control groups.[10]

    I'm no expert on human psychology but to suggest that love is outside the realm of emotions that are all explainable by how we function is bordering on the ridiculous.


    Let me know how you feel when you have a child that is terminal. If you never even so much as whisper a hope into the unknown then you are obviously a better man than me.

    Hopefully he wouldn't, since there are better way to spend energies in a hope for a cure of a sick child.

  16. #16
    Nietzsche's Avatar Too Human
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,878

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing View Post
    I don't like quoting wikipedia, but there are scientific explanations for those things.




    I'm no expert on human psychology but to suggest that love is outside the realm of emotions that are all explainable by how we function is bordering on the ridiculous.





    Hopefully he wouldn't, since there are better way to spend energies in a hope for a cure of a sick child.
    Sorry I had to ROFL at this "explanation" of love. If it's just a matter of chemistry then get everyone in a lab. We can spare everyone the time of finding a suitable partner with a simple litmus test. Move over Match.com, we have a new process. All we need is a pit of your blood and BAM! instant happiness!!!1 ROFL.

    As for your statement on the sick child I'm not even going to comment. Your vehement hatred of anything faith related is too obvious and a sign of the times. Sad.

  17. #17
    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Philadephia, PA
    Posts
    12,431

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by Nietzsche View Post
    Sorry I had to ROFL at this "explanation" of love. If it's just a matter of chemistry then get everyone in a lab. We can spare everyone the time of finding a suitable partner with a simple litmus test. Move over Match.com, we have a new process. All we need is a pit of your blood and BAM! instant happiness!!!1 ROFL.
    Because it has a scientific explanation that means its any less real or wondrous? All the emotions we experience are caused by chemical reactions in the brain, but does that idea dampen the experience so much that you have to ignore it to enjoy life?

    As for your statement on the sick child I'm not even going to comment. Your vehement hatred of anything faith related is too obvious and a sign of the times. Sad.


    What else have you gleaned from our...3 post interactions from each other? Do you know my favorite tv shows or what kind of company I keep?

    This line of "faith hate" you keep hawking about is a poorly disguised troll.

  18. #18
    Nietzsche's Avatar Too Human
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,878

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing View Post
    Because it has a scientific explanation that means its any less real or wondrous? All the emotions we experience are caused by chemical reactions in the brain, but does that idea dampen the experience so much that you have to ignore it to enjoy life?





    What else have you gleaned from our...3 post interactions from each other? Do you know my favorite tv shows or what kind of company I keep?

    This line of "faith hate" you keep hawking about is a poorly disguised troll.
    Point taken. My apologies. I'll say nothing further.

  19. #19
    chriscase's Avatar Chairman Miao
    Civitate Patrician

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,718

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    History is littered with "unexplainable" events that are subsequently explained. And the explanation rarely - if ever - looks like what the proponents of the "unexplainable" think it's going to.

    If we are going to argue about "the unexplainable," let's keep in mind that the religious "explanation" is no more valid - indeed, less so - than any possible scientific explanation.

    Why is it that mysteries are always about something bad? You never hear there's a mystery, and then it's like, "Who made cookies?"
    - Demetri Martin

  20. #20

    Default Re: Faith and Medicine

    It's more likely this was just an anomalous happening. I love it how when people don't understand something, it is immediately credited to God or some supernatural being.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •