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  1. #1

    Default The Cost of Immigration

    Most immigrants are poor; indeed, that is why they come here. Through present immigration policy, we are admitting over one million mostly poor people into our society every year —a society that is already challenged to deal with the poverty of its natives.
    Costs Table from the October 1996 Huddle Study
    Program (amounts in billion $s) Legal Illegal Total
    Public Education K-12 $14.38 $5.85 $20.23
    Public Higher Education $5.55 $0.71 $6.26
    ESL and Bilingual Education $2.82 $1.22 $4.04
    Food Stamps $2.81 $0.85 $3.66
    AFDC $2.71 $0.50 $3.21
    Supplemental Security Income (SSI) $2.76 n/a $2.76
    Housing $2.37 $0.61 $2.98
    Social Security $21.92 $3.61 $25.53
    Earned Income Tax Credit $3.69 $0.68 $4.37
    Medicaid $11.43 $3.12 $14.55
    Medicare A and B $5.49 $0.58 $6.07
    Criminal Justice and Corrections $2.32 $0.76 $3.08
    Local Government $15.32 $5.00 $20.32
    Other Programs $18.41 $9.25 $27.66
    Total Costs $111.98 $32.74 $144.70
    Less Taxes Paid $82.38 $12.59 $94.97
    Net Costs of Direct Services $29.60 $20.16 $49.76
    Displacement Costs $10.96 $4.28 $15.24
    All Net Costs $40.56 $24.44 $65.00
    Percent of Net Costs 62.4% 37.6% 100%

    The cost of immigration to our society is enormous. The most recent estimate places the net cost of post-1969 immigrants at $61 billion in 2000 alone ($35 billion from legal immigrants and $26 billion from illegal immigrants).1 This is after immigrants’ contribution in taxes has been subtracted. As high as the cost is now, the rising tide of immigration will lift it even higher in years to come. By the end of 2002, the annual net cost of immigration will have risen $66 billion.2

    A study from the National Bureau of Economic Research, based on the Census Bureau’s Survey of Income and Program Participation, analyzed the cost of immigrants based on their specific use of means-tested welfare (both direct and indirect), and found that the total immigrant receipt of benefits in 1996 came to $180 billion.3 That annual amount is sure to grow as the population of legal and illegal immigrants receives over one million new people a year.

    The real costs are probably even higher than these estimates, which do not take into account the effects of immigration in displacing American workers from their jobs and depressing wages. Whatever the annual cost, it is sure to grow as the population of legal and illegal immigrants—now at 31 million—receives over a million new people every year. With immigration policy skewed toward admitting relatives from underdeveloped countries and away from skilled admissions, the flow of immigrants is increasingly composed of the unskilled and undereducated. As a result, “immigrants arriving in the past decade or so are earning less compared to native-born Americans than immigrants who arrived in earlier decades.”4 In other words, the overall earning power of the immigrant population will continue to deteriorate, making them an even bigger drain on taxpayers.

    Occasionally, there have been studies that have claimed to find that immigrants create less of a deficit (or even a surplus). But these studies are marred by common flaws, such as using old data on the immigrants of 20 or 30 years ago and the omission of whole categories of less skilled immigrants.5
    Unreimbursed Medical Expenditures
    Many public hospitals in the United States, especially in the Southwest, are facing major financial difficulties because of the services that they are rendering to indigent alien patients (many of whom are in the country illegally). As a response, Rep. Mark Foley (R-FL) introduced legislation in July 2002 to require the federal government to compensate the hospitals for these expenses so that the burden would not be borne only by local taxpayers.
    State Costs of Incarceration

    The Department of Justice’s State Criminal Alien Assistance Program (SCAAP), begun in 1994, compensates states and local jurisdictions only for incarceration of illegal aliens who are serving time for a felony conviction or at least two misdemeanors. However, the level of compensation appears to be falling, leaving more and more of the costs to be borne by state and local taxpayers.

    In 1999, the latest year for which full data is available, states claimed expenses of $1.484 billion for 69,502 illegal alien detention-years through SCAAP. (An illegal alien detention-year may mean the detention of one or several illegal aliens, the latter case occuring when an alien is incarcerated for less than a full year.) The SCAAP program compensationed states and local jurisdiction for only 39 percent of that amount, leaving nearly $911 million to be paid by the state and local taxpayers.

    The partial data available for 2002 indicates that the level of compensation to the states has fallen still more, to less than 20 percent of expenses in 2002.6 Adding to the problem, there has been an increase in criminal aliens in detention. Between FY'99 and FY'02, alien detention increased by 45 percent (from about 69,300 inmate years to over 100,300 inmate years). For 2003, the support to the states was still further reduced, as the funds for SCAAP were cut from $550 million in 2002 to $250 million.

    (These expenses do not include the costs of public safety expenditures, detention pending trial, expenses of trial procedings, interpretation, public defenders, or the incarceration expenses of immigrants for minor offenses that do not meet the standards of the SCAPP reimbursement program.)

    While the cost of taking care of poor immigrants may be shifted by legislation among the levels of government and the private sector, the fact remains that immigration creates an enormous fiscal burden on America and its citizens—a burden that Congress has levied upon us through short-sighted and haphazard immigration policy.

    Americans should demand that Congress reduce the immigrant flow and alter the criteria for admission to ameliorate the cost of immigration to our society.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    Most immigrants are poor; indeed, that is why they come here. Through present immigration policy, we are admitting over one million
    mostly poor people into our society every year
    This is completely bogus. The US immigration policy accepts only the most educated and well to do of immigrants. It's true that most illegal immigrants are poor, but they are dwarfed by the number of legal immigrants. Since this first line metions poor immigrants, I'll assume for the rest of my post that we are talking about poor, and possible illegal immigrants.

    The cost of immigration to our society is enormous. The most recent estimate places the net cost of post-1969 immigrants at $61 billion in 2000 alone ($35 billion from legal immigrants and $26 billion from illegal immigrants).1 This is after immigrants’ contribution in taxes has been subtracted. As high as the cost is now, the rising tide of immigration will lift it even higher in years to come. By the end of 2002, the annual net cost of immigration will have risen $66 billion.2
    Once again, I don't put much weight on these facts. Do illegal immigrants get well-fare? No. Do they get social security? No. Do they get Medicare benifits? No. The only thing illegal immigrants get is tuition for their childeren's public school education. The olny people who spend significantly more on taxes then they recieve back through government services are the rich. America's philosophy is take from the rich and give to the poor. I don't see how anyone can argue with this. What will the rich do with the money? Also, what about the labor that immigrants provide. Anyone with a basic knowledge of economics know that money is not the only thing which holds value in the economy. In fact it is man-hours, labor, which makes the world go round, and ultimately, all prices are based on the man-hours needed to produce a product, and a nation's GNP is directly proportional to the man-hours put in by its workforce. We cannot ignore the labor of (illegal) immigrants this is how they pay back society. This article gives us numbers, but numbers can easily be manipulated. This article only takes into account taxes. Taxflow does not make an economy. That's why communism fails so miserably. Since these numbers only take into account taxes, they are completely useless.

    The real costs are probably even higher than these estimates, which do not take into account the effects of immigration in displacing American workers from their jobs and depressing wages.
    This is the most unbelievable part of the article. If all illegal and/or poor immigrants in the US werte to magically dissapear, things would get much harder for native citizens. Our main source of labor would be obliterated. White blue collor workers in the Southwest would do better because their work would be more in demand and their salaries would rise. However, every other groups in the US would be hurt. In California, for example, food prices would skyrocket without cheap hispanic laborers. Prices of many commodities would rise, and most people's salaries would not.
    Last edited by Azim; September 10, 2008 at 02:58 PM.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    ehem Ill just respond to that with this.

    1. $11 billion to $22 billion dollars are spent each year on welfare to illegal aliens. http://tinyurl.com/zob77

    2. $2.2 billion dollars are spent each year on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

    3. $2.5 billion dollars are spent each year on Medicaid for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

    4. $12 billion dollars are spent each year on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English! http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...01/ldt.01.html

    5. $17 billion dollars are spent each year for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...01/ldt.01.html

    6. $3 Million Dollars PER DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...01/ldt.01.html

    7. 30% percent of all federal prison inmates are illegal aliens.
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...01/ldt.01.html

    8. $90 billion dollars are spent each year on illegal aliens for welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...29/ldt.01.html

    9. $200 billion dollars per year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...01/ldt.01.html

    10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two-and-a-half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US.
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...12/ldt.01.html

    11. During the year 2005, there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our southern border with as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from terrorist countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine, and marijuana crossed into the U.S. from the southern border.
    http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

    12. The National Policy Institute estimates that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion, or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five-year period.
    http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.o...?b=deportation

    13. In 2006, illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin. http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

    14. The dark side of illegal immigration: "Nearly one million sex crimes are committed by illegal immigrants in the United States!"
    http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml

    The total cost is a whopping $338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR!!!

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    Us should put army there to stop them mexican coming , That might work?

  5. #5
    cfmonkey45's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    Already tried that. California and Texas deployed the National Guard to the border for a while, but it didn't really do anything.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    If you wanrt to argue costs, you need to argue benefits. It is a cost versus benefit analysis. Otherwise you lose balance. There is also a danger in aggregate numbers. One of your referencs points out that a huge amount of the welfare benefits goes to UN refugees. To mix these immigrants into any discussion of illegal immigrants crossing our borders is not academicly honest. Migration is better studied by looking at illegal immigrants, legal immigrants entering for family unification, legal immigrants entering for specific skills, legal immigrants for assylum reasons, etc.

    Continuing on the current course -- this thread has nothing to contribute to the debate.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    If you wanrt to argue costs, you need to argue benefits. It is a cost versus benefit analysis. Otherwise you lose balance. There is also a danger in aggregate numbers. One of your referencs points out that a huge amount of the welfare benefits goes to UN refugees. To mix these immigrants into any discussion of illegal immigrants crossing our borders is not academicly honest. Migration is better studied by looking at illegal immigrants, legal immigrants entering for family unification, legal immigrants entering for specific skills, legal immigrants for assylum reasons, etc.

    Continuing on the current course -- this thread has nothing to contribute to the debate.
    Exactly. I would be interested to see an analysis on how much money the cheap labor provided by illegal immigrants saves Americans every year on the purchase of goods and services. Given that the total GDP is something like $13 trillion I would not at all be surprised if it is more than $338.3 billion.

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    Let me state first that I do not advocate amnesty for illegal immigrants, or the reduction of border security. Having people moving in and out of the country without our knowledge is naturally a bad thing. What I am trying to say is that we should not begin to persecute illegal immigrants! They are humans too. And they don't come here to leech off of American citizens, they come to live a better life. What does it say on the Statue of Liberty? Does it say "Give us your wealthy and affluent"? No! It says "Give us your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses, yearning to be free." That is what illegal immigrants come here for, freedom. Maybe not from an oppressive government, but from economic oppression, as with the Mexicans. Illegal immigrants should try to come here legally, but it is next to impossible for them to get here. Their situations are so desperate that they risk their lives to come to this country. And yet many people wish to impale all of these illegal immigrants on sticks. And it is mostly the religious right, nonetheless. People who devote their lives to a religion founded by a man who sought to protect to poor from the wrath of Rome, a powerful and wealthy nation.
    1. $11 billion to $22 billion dollars are spent each year on welfare to illegal aliens. http://tinyurl.com/zob77
    2. $2.2 billion dollars are spent each year on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
    3. $2.5 billion dollars are spent each year on Medicaid for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
    I have to admit that I was not aware of this, but the thing is, whether or not you approve of illegal immigration, it would be immoral to let illegal aliens starve to death on the streets or die of a curable disease for which they cannot afford treatment.
    8. $90 billion dollars are spent each year on illegal aliens for welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...29/ldt.01.html
    4. $12 billion dollars are spent each year on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English! http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...01/ldt.01.html
    5. $17 billion dollars are spent each year for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...01/ldt.01.html
    What does it matter that they can't speak English? This is why they are going to school here! They want to learn English, they want to become American. They are receiving an education so that they can become a productive part of American society. Stopping funding school funding for illegal aliens is counter intuitive. People balk at the number of poor illegal aliens which move into this country. Cutting off education for them would only ensure that we have a poor for generations to come.
    6. $3 Million Dollars PER DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...01/ldt.01.html
    Yes, this is a lot of money, and it would be great if illegal immigrants decided to move to say, Canada, but it's not going to happen. This is like getting mad at criminals because we are spending too much on the police force. Are the criminals the problem? Yes, they are, but you are missing the point. If you want to control the problem, you have to be willing to do the work and pay the money.
    7. 30% percent of all federal prison inmates are illegal aliens.
    10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two-and-a-half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US.
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...12/ldt.01.html
    Right off the bat, I find this number very dodgy. That aside, what does this really mean? Blacks and Native Americans are also disproportionately represented in prisons as well. Is this because they are naturally evil? Should we kill them all before they join the forces of Satan? No, these people resort to crime because their lives are . Again, it may be hard for people like us, who are sitting here chatting about $60 videogames, to understand what it means to be poor. What it means to have to steal so that you don't die of starvation. And as for their children, apparently, the author of this article can see the future and knows that the children of illegal aliens will start down a life crime. Of course, the author knows how to fix this. Cut education for illegal immigrants' children.
    11. During the year 2005, there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our southern border with as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from terrorist countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine, and marijuana crossed into the U.S. from the southern border.
    http://tinyurl.com/t9sht
    So now everyone from a terrorist state is a terrorist and wants to destroy America? I was under the impression that they would come here for exactly the opposite reason: to flee the insanity and live in a real country. As for the drugs, don't expect me to believe that the majority of illegal immigrants are drug smugglers. Drug smugglers don't come here to live: they have to go back to the source. So clearly, it's not drug smugglers who are getting our welfare. Besides, it is impossible to destroy the drug trade. Someone will always find a way around. The best way to stop drug use is to convince Americans not to use drugs!
    12. The National Policy Institute estimates that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion, or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five-year period.
    http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.o...?b=deportation
    Which is exactly why we can't and shouldn't try a mass deportation, and why we should learn to live with the illegal aliens who are already here.
    13. In 2006, illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin. http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm
    Although I'm a native born American, I'm from a (legal) immigrant family. If you are not from an immigrant family, perhaps you won’t understand why we do this. Let me try to explain. We have family living in poor countries. A very large family, most of which has already retired. Their retirement savings, built on a hard life's work, have evaporated to nothing thanks to runaway inflation back in their country. Working again is out of question, they are too old. So we, with extra money, send some back to help them. Why? Because we love them. I see nothing wrong with this.
    14. The dark side of illegal immigration: "Nearly one million sex crimes are committed by illegal immigrants in the United States!"
    http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml
    Look up how many sex crimes are commited by native born American's first, then come back. In science, you do not do an experiment without a control experiment: You need something to comepare your results with. What do we have to compare with here? For all we know, native born americans could commit tens of millions of sex crimes a year.

    It seems to me that fears about the economic ramification of illegal immigrants is turning to racial fears. Just look at this: This article basically said "Watch out, immigrant men will rape our women!" This is what white said to justify Jim Crow laws back in the 50s and 60s. It's bogus. America hasn't moved above rascism. It's just shifted targets, because one race got fed up and tried to fight back.
    Last edited by Azim; September 10, 2008 at 04:12 PM.

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  9. #9
    Zodiac's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Azim View Post
    Although I'm a native born American, I'm from a (legal) immigrant family. If you are not from an immigrant family, perhaps you won’t understand why we do this. Let me try to explain. We have family living in poor countries. A very large family, most of which has already retired. Their retirement savings, built on a hard life's work, have evaporated to nothing thanks to runaway inflation back in their country. Working again is out of question, they are too old. So we, with extra money, send some back to help them. Why? Because we love them. I see nothing wrong with this.
    Too bad most people would never understand this. As far as I'm concerned, family is family and I will would help them in any way I could. Also... we earned that money. Who the hell has the right to tell us we can't help our families?
    "Why do I keep coming back here again?" ~ Zodiac

  10. #10
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    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    The US was built upon poor immigrants....built and preserved...and will continue to be so forever, else the US will simply cease to be the US but a new Europe.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    The US was built upon poor LEGAL immigrants....built and preserved...and will continue to be so forever, else the US will simply cease to be the US but a new Europe.



    I added the word you forgot.

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    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    The US was built upon poor immigrants....built and preserved...and will continue to be so forever, else the US will simply cease to be the US but a new Europe.
    That a bad thing or something?

    I just love these recent political changes. Obviously TWC is not the perfect gauge for the public's opinons, but you cant deny that TWC is populated primarily by liberals, that a year ago there was little to any immigration debate, and that most Western nations are universally cracking down. Opinions are shifting, and I love every minute of it.

    Bye bye Multiculturalism!

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    A lot of those countries south of the US border are poor precisely because of the US imperialist Monroe doctrine. All I can say is you reap what you sow.

    Have a good day.

    P.S. What's the difference between a fatcat CEO who plunges billions into a Swiss Bank account and some immigrants who send their family maybe $1,000 a year... at most?
    Last edited by Romano-Dacis; September 10, 2008 at 09:21 PM.

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    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Romano-Dacis View Post
    A lot of those countries south of the US border are poor precisely because of the US imperialist Monroe doctrine. All I can say is you reap what you sow.

    Have a good day.

    P.S. What's the difference between a fatcat CEO who plunges billions into a Swiss Bank account and some immigrants who send their family maybe $1,000 a year... at most?
    Like another thread -- it is none of anyones business as long as the money is earned legally.

    Imerialist Monroe Doctrine???

    Imperialist support of governments friendly to the United Fruit Company, yes. Dictators and despots may get foreign support to stay in power -- but it is still the responsibility of the nation's citizens to demand and get good government.

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Imperialist support of governments friendly to the United Fruit Company, yes. Dictators and despots may get foreign support to stay in power -- but it is still the responsibility of the nation's citizens to demand and get good government.
    Yeah, you mean like those Chileans with their democratically-elected Salvador Allende. Yes, I perfectly see where you're coming from. Tyrannical government in South America is purely the result of their own ineptitude, not the result of intervention of an oppressive superpower.

  16. #16
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Romano-Dacis View Post
    A lot of those countries south of the US border are poor precisely because of the US imperialist Monroe doctrine. All I can say is you reap what you sow.
    hardly the sole contributor.

    Not all problems in the world are from the US.
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    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar Face View Post
    That a bad thing or something?
    Yes a manufactured racial purity to the natives ideology is bad. Because its what we call on this side of the Atlantic...bollocks. English culture was completely different 1000 years ago, American 'culture' did not exist. the Earth 5 billion years old, and mankind 200,000.

    Those who think that they can keep everything in some kind of stasis and preserve their 'national culture', racial purity and power to the natives simply have forgotten history.

    "Those who forget History are doomed to repeat it."

    I just love these recent political changes. Obviously TWC is not the perfect gauge for the public's opinons, but you cant deny that TWC is populated primarily by liberals, that a year ago there was little to any immigration debate, and that most Western nations are universally cracking down. Opinions are shifting, and I love every minute of it.
    So do I, it's funny to see Libs and Conservatives squirming in their seats and ranting on-line at the prospect of Vladimir and Ahmed coming over here.

    Bye bye Multiculturalism!
    yep, this being discussed on twcenter will be the defining factor, despite anti-Immigration having existed for as long as man has bene able to speak....and immigration always always prevail...





    ----


    There are three different grounds to oppose immigration on.

    1. Economic
    2. Logistical
    3. Cultural/Racial


    And all have very different meanings, i am for number 2, and sometimes in some cases number 1.

  18. #18
    Phalanx300's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    ....and immigration always always prevail...
    Talk about fantasy, if we don't want immigration then it simply wont happen. It is going on becouse our goverment has chosen to let it go on.

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    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    Talk about fantasy, if we don't want immigration then it simply wont happen. It is going on becouse our goverment has chosen to let it go on.

    Really? If we don't want it...it will go away?

    Your knowledge of both immigration and our attitudes to it are way way off.

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    Default Re: The Cost of Immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    Yes a manufactured racial purity to the natives ideology is bad. Because its what we call on this side of the Atlantic...bollocks. English culture was completely different 1000 years ago, American 'culture' did not exist. the Earth 5 billion years old, and mankind 200,000.
    It has nothing to do with racial purity, its a national identity. English culture will always evolve, all cultures do, at the behest of those who live there. English culture changed because the English stopped acting the same way, not because they allowed their identity to be raped.
    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    Those who think that they can keep everything in some kind of stasis and preserve their 'national culture', racial purity and power to the natives simply have forgotten history.

    "Those who forget History are doomed to repeat it."
    History shows mass immigration, demographic and cultural displacement, results in civil war, and mass death. So uh....
    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    So do I, it's funny to see Libs and Conservatives squirming in their seats and ranting on-line at the prospect of Vladimir and Ahmed coming over here.
    Might be funny for you, because you have some perverse hatred in national and cultural identity, and want to see the British people wiped out- why is that by the way, were you a social outcast as a child?- but for me, its just my politics coming to fruition.
    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    yep, this being discussed on twcenter will be the defining factor, despite anti-Immigration having existed for as long as man has bene able to speak....
    As I wrote....in the very post you are quoting no less....twc is not proof that immigration is coming to an end, but the degree of topics does show that its on everybodys mind, and its on everybodys mind because polls show it is greatly despised, and the West is changing its policies in these regards.
    Quote Originally Posted by ЯoMe kb8 View Post
    and immigration always always prevail...
    No, no it does not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithie View Post
    Your ancestors laboured for decades to raise their social status enough so that their grandchildren won't HAVE to perform menial labor; let the Mexicans do that.
    So then they can work hard enough not to require menial labour, take over the country demographically, and start up the cycle of demographic/cultural replacement yet again?

    Naaah.
    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Looking at things a different way...

    Cost of 16th century immigration ( note for illustrative purposes, I think these figures are too high)

    Stannard, American Holocaust (1992): 100,000,000 deaths across the hemisphere across time

    * 16th Century death toll: between 60M and 80M
    o Panama, 1514-1530: 2M Indians killed
    o Mexico
    + Central: Population fell from 25.0M (1519) to 1.3M (1595)
    + SE: fell from 1,700,000 to 240,000
    + North: fell from 2,500,000 to 320,000
    o Peru, 16th C.: between 8.5M and 13.5M people destroyed.


    Long term benefits self-evident, given the size of the US economy. Do you suggest returning to the 16th century status quo or are you content with the benefit of the influx of Old World migrants over the centuries?
    Oh look, Mongrel thinks us stupid enough that White guilt might actually be even a remotely valid argument.

    Lets see...give the Indians back their lands or allow my society to die....how about this, no?
    Last edited by Scar Face; September 11, 2008 at 12:20 PM.

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