Sieges

[davidtotalwar]

I was just wondering what are your plans for siege battles. I believe the the AI needs to be improved for both when its attacking or defending, but I have no idea how you would do this.

But one thing I would like to know is whether your planning to use boiling oil from Kingdoms into your mod. If you are planning to use it then the AI must be improved, this is because the AI seems to act as if the boiling oil is not there and just charge through the gate and gets destroyed by the oil. It make defending in a siege battle far to easy.

One last think I was thinking that city and castle walls need to be stronger as in reality even if the attacking army had cannons it would take them a long time to bring down the walls giving the defender plenty of time to get ready for the attack. But in the game you can bring down the wall with a few shot with a cannon allowing you to make so many holes in the city walls it just becomes stupid.

I am also interested to see if any one else has any ideas on how to improve siege battles.

[mayhem87]

yeah walls needs to be stronger at least

[OdinX]

I'm surprised at how little people are answering this post. but I think the AI needs to at least be improved in terms of sieges. There are so many flaws with the AI, but this becomes apparent in battle. Not only is the enemy AI a total dunce, but so are your reinforcements (should you have any).

[davidtotalwar]

Yer I am also surprised to see that no one has really answered any of my questions but never mind, this mod looks like it will hard work to get it working so the mod builders (or what ever they call them selves) are probably to busy to comment and I don't blame them one bit.

[Copperknickers II]

Afaik, we have not made any changes to the seige battles as of yet, but i am pretty sure that boiling oil will be included. Im not sure however, i dont work on that area of gameplay.

[Stinkfloyd]

Xeyryx is testing a new BAI in which he has completely reworked the siege AI. It is really good so far but it is a WIP.

[OdinX]

Xeyryx is testing a new BAI in which he has completely reworked the siege AI. It is really good so far but it is a WIP.

Well nice to know someone is working on that.

[sirfiggin]

for the sieges, if possible the ai should attempt to clear the walls before going through the gate as this would mitigate the oil.

[billydilly]

Xeryx is promising great improvements in the upcoming XBAI, so I'm looking forward to that

[Captain.E.Blackadder]

Cravy AI just don't get it abount boiling oil their going to bring my king pain!! (say in mr.t's voice)

[OdinX]

One thing that I'm thinking about is the fact that rams and other such siege engines will be able to knock down even stone walls. This is gonna be a headache when you're being under siege by the enemy. Not only will they most likely bring some siege towers, but rams to break down sections of your wall. However, this presents as a great strategy to you as well being able to actually split apart forces; attacking the front gates with siege towers all the while taking rams and ladders to the side walls or something as such. No longer will we feel safe just because we have stone walls.

[McMarx]

Here's an idea... How about adding tents, carts, food supplies and camps around a sieged city when on the battlefield. It would simply add a bit of "Ambiance", highlighting the fact that the invading army's been living off the land or locations for a bit.
Theses items don't need to do anything, and can be outside the battle limits. Purpose: To look good.

[true born Lithuanian]

Here's an idea... How about adding tents, carts, food supplies and camps around a sieged city when on the battlefield. It would simply add a bit of "Ambiance", highlighting the fact that the invading army's been living off the land or locations for a bit.
Theses items don't need to do anything, and can be outside the battle limits. Purpose: To look good.

Yeah, it would look nice, I wonder if it is possible to do such thing... If its yes, then great, but if it use more PC recources then- NO

[McMarx]

Yeah, it would look nice, I wonder if it is possible to do such thing... If its yes, then great, but if it use more PC recources then- NO

I believe it would be the rough equivalent of adding a tree. So there shouldn't be a big problem there... I think.

Also... The length of a siege seems unrealistic. To siege for 4 years seems impossible. I could be wrong, but changing this to a shorter time would make more sense. As a negative effect, this would also make assault sieges less common. Why attack and risk loosing men, when you can starve the enemy for 1 year (2 turns)and force to come to you.
You could cause the army to loose supply and patience which would result in the loss of moral and eventually desertion. For example, a week army can only siege a town or city for no more than x turns, while a big and strong army can siege for 2x turns.
Another way of going around this problem could be by adding 4 turns per year. This would make a one year siege last 4 turns rather than 2, which is already better than 2. I also understand that with a change like this come a million other problems.
Anyways... this is something to think about.

[davidtotalwar]

I think McMarx made a good point when he put "You could cause the army to loose supply and patience which would result in the loss of moral and eventually desertion. For example, a week army can only siege a town or city for no more than x turns, while a big and strong army can siege for 2x turns." (sorry but I can't get the proper quoting thing to work) Its a good idea because logistics in medieval times was so bad it normally coursed the besieging army to run out of food before the defenders in side the castle or fortified city did. So we need something in the game to represent this.

I have a few more ideas for sieges don't know if they are possible but just putting some more ideas forward.

Firstly I like the idea of battering rams being able to batter down parts of the wall but have the mod developers thought of any way for the defenders to stop that from happening. Historically there were many ways used by defenders to stop a battering ram breaking down their walls, some times they used hocks to jam the ram part next to the wall, or they but objects in front of the battering rams path to stop it getting to the wall or just coming out from behind the wall to attack the ram.

Another thing in the game there is nothing really stopping you from walking your armies around cities and border forts and attacking deep inside enemy territory. But that was imposable in real life as if you just walked past an enemy fort or castle then the garrison of that castle would start attacking your supply lines. This forced attacking armies to try and take every fort and castle along their root which no nation really had the money, troops or supplies to do which made deep attacks into enemy territory almost imposable in Western Europe in this time. So is there any way of representing this in the game?

Lastly does anyone else have an opinion on what I said before about when in the game it gets into the 16th century allowing us to make 16th century fortifications.

I am sorry if I keep going on about sieges but siege warfare was the dominate part of warfare in this time period and I would like to see it represented accordingly.

[spanish_emperor]

don't worry, if everything goes alright you will be able to put seige towers on the walls...that would make it a headache for the attacker
however, will the AI do the same when you attack?

[OdinX]

I don't think you should apologize David, after all, this thread is based on sieges so...but besides, that you made some good points. I wonder if there's a way to represent some sort of resistance as you go in to enemy territory?

[McMarx]

That's a great idea! I think this should be limited to non crusading army's. Crusading army's could have some negative effects, but they shouldn't have as much. It would make a crusade really difficult for a faction far from the Crusade's objective city.
On the other hand this could add a whole new level of difficulty and make you think twice before going on a crusade.

[Shigawire]

To me, the aspect of sieges has been given a very narrow focus by most people. People come to understand sieges as something involving towers, ladders and most importantly artillery. However both in Ancient era (EB era) and in Medieval era, these castle assaults are the rare exceptions rather than the rule. The most major aspect of siege warfare is in the actual investment of cities. This was true of ancient times, and it is true for the medieval era where the investment of cities, most of which were of antique origin, was the focal point of siege operations. Attacks on castles, by comparison, were of little significance except where they served as part of an in-depth defensive system which had been developed in order to control substantial territorial expanses.

I think modifications should look for a wider focus to the preparations for - and investment of - cities. Perhaps we can find possibilities in scripting which were not there previously in the RTW engine. Consider the work of Argantonio and KE also, for what is to come.

Besieging a city could take months, even years. Acre was besieged in a naval siege for 2 years. But when you have a system based on 2 turns per year, you quickly limit the time available for interesting siege warfare.

[davidtotalwar]

Shigawire you gave very good information I would rep you if I could. Even though you said "investment of cities" what did you mean by that?

It is a great shame that because of the game limitations we will never be able to get a proper feel to siege warfare. The game is too far geared to assaults on the walls. But in reality most fortified cities fell to starvation of a long siege rather than direct assaults. Direct assaults were more common against forts and castles because of their small size and small garrison. But attacks on fortified cities were more of an act of desperation rather than a main strategy.

Also lots of sieges had a move and counter move system with both attackers and defenders tried to gain an advantage over the other. I always find this part of sieges very interesting. But the game will never really be able to show this.

However we will never know fully what happened in most sieges because scollers (I can't spell it) and historians of the time did not record the information because they were to interested in knights and battles which were only miner parts of warfare at this time.

But hopefully the mod developers will be able to come up with something to make sieges better.