New evidence of US bombing civilians in Afghanistan

[Tominokar]

Disturbing video footage - apparently of the aftermath of the raid - has been seen by top military figures and diplomats in Kabul. The shaky footage - possibly shot with a mobile phone - shows some 40 dead bodies lined up under sheets and blankets inside a mosque.
The majority of the dead are children - babies and toddlers, some burned so badly they are barely recognisable.
The covers are removed for the camera one by one: a little girl of perhaps four with brown curly hair; a boy with his eyes still eerily open; another girl with huge injuries on the side of her head.
Another boy has his hand up as if to protect his face which was crushed under the rubble.
Clearly heard on the tape is the crying of relatives and the survivors of the bombing raid.
US forces had originally said seven civilians were killed in a "successful" US raid targeting a Taleban commander in Azizabad village in Herat's Shindand district.
However, the UN, the Afghan government and an Afghan human rights group said the number of civilian deaths was far higher.
Their estimates of the number of civilians killed varied between 76 and 90, with the UN eventually concluding that children accounted for 60 of the dead.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7603969.stm

Afghan bombing drives allies apart:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7584464.stm

[Boer]

It is a tragic but predictable result of our policies in Afghanistan and Iraq. We’ve been moving troops out of Afghanistan and putting them into Iraq, forcing the war to be fought more and more through the air. Troops are spread thin and rely on air support a lot. When the insurgents blend into the civilian population this kind of accidental civilian deaths are inevitable in an air war, just usually there is a much lower death rate from one attack. What really worries me is the drastic difference in US and UN given civilian casualties for this attack. The last thing we need is for people to assume this is part of an organized cover-up and assume that all US given civilian casualties are low by such an unreasonable amount.

[Kanaric]

Yes, the US "bombs civilians".... where is the outrage from non Americans about Russia doing the same?

[Каие]

I have to say this greatly troubles me. I support this offensive, but the cost of War seems to be unbearable. It won't do anything to sway international, or Muslim opinion.

[Kanaric]

Collateral damage always results from bombing, at least this is only a handful of people. Russia managed to kill 1000+ in a couple of days.

[Каие]

Collateral damage always results from bombing, at least this is only a handful of people. Russia managed to kill 1000+ in a couple of days.

No they didn't, 133 people die overall. this is confirmed.

[Heathen Hammer]

Collateral damage always results from bombing, at least this is only a handful of people. Russia managed to kill 1000+ in a couple of days.

Where? When? Source?

[Smythes]

This is worth considering, although I think we would all rather peopel didnt have to die.

This sounds bad, but the force needed to acheive a result has decreased considerably. E.g. do you really know how many tons of bombs it took in world war II to destroy a daylight structure, and what that meant for people in the vicinity of the target?


At least now, less tonnage of bombs is needed to acheive an objective. I mean, otherwise you'd get aircraft hitting whole villages with Dumb Bombs to acheive results.

Collateral damage in limited wars has decreased, due to the ability to hit targets with less expenditure. That doesnt make it easy if your i nthe way at the time, and the bomb isnt aimed at you but is a raw fact I expect not to be easily swallowed by many people.

[Applesmack]

Wow this is digusting...The US kills nearly half the people that Russia killed in the WHOLE invasion of Georgia with 1 bombing raid. Someone please put some gasoline on the burning American flag in my avatar

[danzig]

Wow this is digusting...The US kills nearly half the people that Russia killed in the WHOLE invasion of Georgia with 1 bombing raid. Someone please put some gasoline on the burning American flag in my avatar

Lowest death toll for georgia is still 2x this total so hush.

[Yorkshireman]

Wow this is digusting...The US kills nearly half the people that Russia killed in the WHOLE invasion of Georgia with 1 bombing raid. Someone please put some gasoline on the burning American flag in my avatar

I know, at this rate in another 50 years time, the co-alition will have killed nearly as many civilians as the Russians killed in Chechnya.

[eddy_purpus]

civilians have always died in wars .

[Tominokar]

civilians have always died in wars .

Women have always been raped. Children have always been molested. Does it make it excusable?

[eddy_purpus]

Women have always been raped. Children have always been molested. Does it make it excusable?

i wasnt making it excusable ...
it really happens but what can WE do ?
nothing since the gov wont listen to our words =/
TOTAL FANATIC i find your picture disgusting with the US flag burning . idk if no mOd has seen it... =/

[HorseArcher]

It has an effect though.

For example, Al -Queada recruitment might jump a few numbers up.

Other than that, I seriously doubt, that they would become 'feared' of US bombings, even if they hit them and kill let's say - 100?- 200?-.

They don't afraid to blow themselves up, why would they be afraid to get killed by bombs, especially if the bombs also kill those who has nothing to do with it?

It works right into their hands. They died for a cause which will reinforce the future generation of terrorist cells. Job well done.

[Fianóglach]

The only thing more frightening and unjust than total war, is limited war. There is no way of conducting military operations of the scale and nature of Afghanistan and Iraq without incurring massive civilian casualties. The nature of the enemy exploits this fact. If a bee stings me, and hides in a nest, I'm going to destroy that nest, not get stung thousands of times by trying to decipher which bee stung me. War is about numbers and percentages, not feelings or what is right. Stop kidding yourselves civvies.

[Nietzsche]

Perhaps what needs to be addressed is intelligence methods. American airplanes didn't just take off from some dusty airfield and drop bombs on some helpless villagers (at least we hope they didn't). The attack plan was likely a result of some kind of intelligence gathering that led a commander to believe there were insurgents in or about the area in question.

I think it's safe to assume that a large part of American intelligence comes from local sources. Aghani's are giving information about other Afghani's. The intelligence units determines the validity of the information and assesses the threat. Then the order is issued.

So, it would seem that it's not simply a problem with American bombs. It's a problem with the validity of the intelligence and the integrity of the gatherers. It's no secret that tribal squabbles and blood feuds rage across the mountains of Afghanistan. It is certainly plausible that these political fights are making their way to American military HQ's where the information presented is inspected and decisions made "in real time."

There are so many avenues of mistake here that "best guess" assessments are probably the norm rather than the exception. In this case, it would appear that the "best guess" was incorrect with some unfortunate results.

So before we start burning flags and spewing hate America propaganda perhaps we should look at the situation at a strategic level rather than a tactical one. Should any wrongdoing be found, than punishment should be issued. But before the dead are counted, we need to at the very least be sure of our sources and our facts.

[Da Skinna]

The innocent are the ones that die in war. Never the guilty.

[gambit]

New evidence? Why? Everyone knows civilians have been dying in the war. Just like every other damn war.

It ain't right but you cant stop it, unless you have the almighty "end war" button.

[mrmouth]

What is the point of this thread?

People get hit by buses, and if you drop enough ordnance on a country, people you didn't mean to kill will be killed. All in all, by historical standards the civilian casualty rate in both Iraq and A-stan wouldn't even register as a full percentage point, if at all. You can say that's still not good enough, or you could also choose to live in the real world.

The US goes to extreme lengths to prevent civilian casualties. The bomb chain is a long process, and often leads to a target being long gone by the time an air crew is cleared hot. Its arguably lead to many deaths of our own people of the years, and its all to prevent the death of innocent civilians.

As far as Karzai showing his disgust, what else should he do?