Russia will not cut off our resources nor go to war

[Astaroth]

The constant whining and leftist ing (mainly by Europeans) about how we must be very nice to Russia, about how we shall not anger them, about how we shouldn't risk war over "1 little country" and about how Russia could easily cut off our resource supply is getting on my nerves.

You see it everywhere - newspapers, TV, magazines, youtube and even here, on TWC!
It seems as if the liberal clique has decided to ally with Russia because they are incredibly scared of "WW3" and "freezors".
The funny thing is - they defend Russia all the time, saying how it's "Russia's right" to defend its "sphere of influence" or something. But then, in the next sentence, they spread fear and uninformed nonsense about how they "dont want to risk their lives for some caucasus region". Ahhh okay, so Russia is all nice and friendly etc but if we just dare to speak up against them a little, they won't only immediately cut off our gas, no, they will also declare war on us in a second.
Now that's the kind of guys we want to be allies with! Don't anger the Russian bear, silly!

Wait, what does that remind me of again? Oh yeah! Just give them Austria, then he'll be happy! I mean, we gave him everything he wanted to have. Don't risk war just 'cause of those silly czechs! Who needs 'em anyway.
Oh wait...
Now I mind you, I don't think Russia is on a level with Nazi Germany. Neither is it as strong (in comparison) nor do I think that Russia will cause a World War.
Still - there are striking similarities.

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How long will we continue feeding our small, weak allies to rogue nations just to avoid confrontation? And it is totally unnecessary, which makes it even worse!

What? What did he just say?

Shut up you! I don't want to risk my life in the Caucasus! I don't want to freeze in the winter! Don't you see what you are about to do? Russia could ruin our economy at any time!!!!! Russia would overrun us with their tanks!!!! OMG!!

Calm down bro. It's fine, you'll be alright.

How so?! Do you want another World War?

No. But it will not happen anyway. You WAY overestimate Russia's power. Russia might have improved economically over the last few years. Sure. But it is still a shadow of its former self. Russia is nothing compared to the new world powers. Hah, Russia! This isn't the 60s. This is 2008.

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Myth number 1): RUSSIA WILL CUT OFF OUR GAS AND OIL!!!

No. Simply no. Russia's economy depends on exporting those resources. Russia's economy depends on the consumers. It depends on us. I don't just claim that, nope. During the Cold War, the Soviet Union was a lot stronger than Russia is currently. But guess what, they exported their goods to European NATO countries - countries that were their declared "fascist" enemies. The majority of their gas went to "fascist" Europe back then.
It is highly illogical, irrational and stupid to claim that Russia could or would now suddenly do what they never dared.
There is also another reason for why Russia cannot do that: This time, Russia is dependant on the West more than ever. They call the Germans and French "friends" and no longer have the support of the whole of Eastern Europe. If they ruined the relationships like that, they'd never be able to ever recover from that internationally. Russia would be isolated even more so than it now is.

Myth number 2): RUSSIA WILL START WW3 IF WE INTERVENE!!!

No. Again, nope. Think about it for a minute - you claim that Russia would dare to start a war against NATO? Okay... now there are two incredibly important reasons for why Russia would never, ever dare to do that.
1. Russia simply isn't powerful enough. a) 5 European countries and the US have a stronger economy (GDP) than Russia. b) Even GERMANY has a higher military expenditure than Russia. c) The NATO's military expenditures are TWENTY TIMES that of Russia. d) Russia's military is for a major part 20 years old, the soldiers are not disciplined, the equipment they use was thrown into the trash can by NATO 10-15 years ago. e) Russia has no major allies that would support it right now. -tan power and Belarus, that's about it. NATO? US, Canada, Turkey, European countries etc. f) If Russia dared to attack NATO, everybody worldwide would distance themselves from Russia.
2. Russia would gain nothing from it - there have been so many points at which WW3 could have happened. Russia didn't start the war when they had 3 times their current power. Russia didn't start the war when there were missiles (agressive missiles, not defensive stuff) in Turkey. Russia didn't start when they had nuclear missiles on Cuba. There is no way in hell Russia would start a war now, being a shadow of their former strength, over a pathetic region called "South Ossetia".

Myth number 3): RUSSIAN ARMY IS STILL VERY STRONG, BIGGEST TANK ARMY EVER!!! OH AND LOOK HOW THEY DESTROYED GEORGIA!!!

Garbage once again. As I proved above - even countries known for their defensiveness and pacifism such as Germany spend more money on military than Russia does. Russian equipment is OLD. Just think about it for a minute - Russia is supposed to have 1 million active men and roughly 4 million total troops. Yet their military spending is lower than GERMANY'S, a country with a total army of less than 1/10th of Russia's. What does that tell us?
Russian air force is pathetic. Russia has NO nuclear submarines. Russian tanks are old and outdated. Russian army is something with which you can frighten countries with an army of 35,000 men (Georgia) but not a fully equipped, big modern NATO army.
You don't have to fear the bear. Really.

Myths busted!

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Now you might ask: why does Russia do this then, even if their own weakness is so obvious, even if they know they'd stand no way in hell of ever winning a war, not even being able to start it? Russia did this because it knew it could. It knew about the fear of the average, all-too-common leftie. It knew about the pussy European politicians.
Putin is a clever man. He knew that America's overstretched army but mainly the USA's hurt international image would make an US intervention highly unlikely. He also knew that Europe would never do something. so hey, why not make everybody afraid of Russia again? Why not show them we are still someone?

Russia uses our fear in two ways: it obviously is a tool to make us scared, to make us not want to intervene, to make us secretly think about how powerful russia is and about not wanting a worldwar etc.
But it is also used to take the morale high ground. "you are just spreading russophobia", "russia wouldnt do anything" etc.
That way they have two seemingly powerful weapons. They secretly make us afraid of their potential while on the surface always denying that. We are scared to act because we think Russia might punish us, but we are also scared to talk about that fear because we are afraid of getting laughed at etc.

That is why this has to end - it is ridiculous how a country consisting of vast, empty lands, with a population of 150 million terrorizes the world, and especially the west with a populatuion of 800 millions (EU+US). Our economies are several times as big as theirs is. Our armies are much bigger. Our technology is much more advanced. They will never ever dare to attack. They CAN'T cut off our resources. We have all the weapons, all the tools. We hold everything in our hands.

The only thing they have is our FEAR.

That is why we must overcome it. And quikly, before our bully-friend in the East decides to wreck havoc some more.
I hope I could convince some of you to finally stand up and to speak up.
No more whining or crying. We don't need it. Act with strenght and you will be treated like a strong man. Act weakly and you will be treated like a weakling.
I hope you will be able to sleep again now. The Russian teddybear won't hurt you, be assured.

[FirstManOnTheMoon]

What exactly is the point of this rant? Everyone knows that neither Russia nor NATO will start WW3. You can go on and bash Russia's economy, military, etc.. - but that's a waste of time, since the only one thing that matters in a WW3 situation - nuclear missiles. As long as Russia has its nukes, it'll be a major player in the world. Deal with it.

[WrathofTulkas]

WW2... appeasemnet

I doubt there will be a WW3 atm.

[Astaroth]

What exactly is the point of this rant? Everyone knows that neither Russia nor NATO will start WW3. You can go on and bash Russia's economy, military, etc.. - but that's a waste of time, since the only one thing that matters in a WW3 situation - nuclear missiles. As long as Russia has its nukes, it'll be a major player in the world. Deal with it.

I adressed that point. Russia cannot and will not dare to start a war. Re-read my post I suggest.

Thanks for the support, Beren +rep (forgot to add my name, sorry )

[FirstManOnTheMoon]

I adressed that point. Russia cannot and will not dare to start a war. Re-read my post I suggest.

Thanks for the support, Beren +rep (forgot to add my name, sorry )

Your point was that Russia will not start WW3? Brilliant detective skills there, Watson.

[Myxlpltx]

You missed one little detail: What can we gain from going to war with Russia?

PS: Russia's military may suck in comparison to that of America's but it's a lot better than anything America has faced in recent decades. Saying that we could just waltz in and totally destroy the Russian army within a few weeks is just stupid.

[Astaroth]

You missed one little detail: What can we gain from going to war with Russia?

PS: Russia's military may suck in comparison to that of America's but it's a lot better than anything America has faced in recent decades. Saying that we could just waltz in and totally destroy the Russian army within a few weeks is just stupid.

Please, if you are unable to read my post and understand it fully, then I suggest that you do not post.

I never suggested to declare war on Russia. I meant that Europe and America should put economical sanctions on Russia, along with taking Georgia into NATO mainly and kicking Russia out of G8.

The main point was taking Georgia into NATO - if that happened, Russia wouldn't dare messing with Georgia anymore because the alternative would mean war. something Russia can not afford as I thouroughly described above.

Oh and in case you wonder "why would we want to do that"? Because we do not want to encourage rogue nations, non-democracies and coungtries that are not free to mess with the free world. We do not want to see anymore of this crap, I for my part don't want an invasion in Ukraine tomorrow etc. If you keep feeding Russia without ever punishing them for their crap they will keep doing it.

[Panzerbear]

Please, if you are unable to read my post and understand it fully, then I suggest that you do not post.

it makes no sense to understand it "fully", because you cram so much uneducated garbage into one post of A4 format, like there is no tomorrow.

I never suggested to declare war on Russia. I meant that Europe and America should put economical sanctions on Russia, along with taking Georgia into NATO mainly and kicking Russia out of G8.

except that their govts don't agree with your half-assed approach to dealing with Russia . we all understand that you are an armchair general, but they actually have entire countries to run, and have to think with their head, not their other body parts.

The main point was taking Georgia into NATO - if that happened, Russia wouldn't dare messing with Georgia anymore because the alternative would mean war.

something tells me that if Georgia decides to attack its neighbors once again, not only it will be owned by Russia once again, but also will be expelled from NATO just as fast as it joined it.

something Russia can not afford as I thouroughly described above.

nobody is going to start a WW3 over some morally bankrupt regime in Northern Caucasus, dont you worry .

[FirstManOnTheMoon]

Please, if you are unable to read my post and understand it fully, then I suggest that you do not post.

I never suggested to declare war on Russia. I meant that Europe and America should put economical sanctions on Russia, along with taking Georgia into NATO mainly and kicking Russia out of G8.

The main point was taking Georgia into NATO - if that happened, Russia wouldn't dare messing with Georgia anymore because the alternative would mean war. something Russia can not afford as I thouroughly described above.

Oh and in case you wonder "why would we want to do that"? Because we do not want to encourage rogue nations, non-democracies and coungtries that are not free to mess with the free world. We do not want to see anymore of this crap, I for my part don't want an invasion in Ukraine tomorrow etc. If you keep feeding Russia without ever punishing them for their crap they will keep doing it.

No-one is going to put economic sanctions on Russia. No-one's going to kick Russia out of G8.

Maybe you should look at your own country before you start calling Russia a rogue state.

[Applesmack]

I never suggested to declare war on Russia. I meant that Europe and America should put economical sanctions on Russia, along with taking Georgia into NATO mainly and kicking Russia out of G8.

Completely hypocritic..You stated sanctions would cripple the countries and then go and say they should put them. You realize right, that Russia could still power its cities, unlike Europe. They also got other markets so their economy and country would still function, unlike Europes, which would be thrown to complete hell.

The main point was taking Georgia into NATO - if that happened, Russia wouldn't dare messing with Georgia anymore because the alternative would mean war. something Russia can not afford as I thouroughly described above.

I don't really think NATO would want to risk war with Russia for Georgia. You saw how NATO reacted, they just wined. Putting Georgia in NATO would increase the tensions to horrific levels. Soon enough, the Russians would put nukes in Cuba and Iran.

Oh and in case you wonder "why would we want to do that"? Because we do not want to encourage rogue nations, non-democracies and coungtries that are not free to mess with the free world.

Your talking about how Georgia shouldn't mess with Russia, right?

We do not want to see anymore of this crap, I for my part don't want an invasion in Ukraine tomorrow etc. If you keep feeding Russia without ever punishing them for their crap they will keep doing it.

As long as Ukraine ain't stupid, like Georgia, then they are fine.

[Myxlpltx]

Please, if you are unable to read my post and understand it fully, then I suggest that you do not post.

I never suggested to declare war on Russia. I meant that Europe and America should put economical sanctions on Russia, along with taking Georgia into NATO mainly and kicking Russia out of G8.

The main point was taking Georgia into NATO - if that happened, Russia wouldn't dare messing with Georgia anymore because the alternative would mean war. something Russia can not afford as I thouroughly described above.

Oh and in case you wonder "why would we want to do that"? Because we do not want to encourage rogue nations, non-democracies and coungtries that are not free to mess with the free world. We do not want to see anymore of this crap, I for my part don't want an invasion in Ukraine tomorrow etc. If you keep feeding Russia without ever punishing them for their crap they will keep doing it.

Funny that you say that, especially since you post says nothing about economic sanctions, nor taking Georgia into NATO, nor kicking Russia out of the G8. It's nothing more than just a massive rant about how Russia sucks and about how anyone who isn't willing to fight them is a whiny liberal .

[Shi Huangdi]

We need to do what we did to Iraq in the First Gulf War--smash them out of Georgia, but don't drive into Moscow. On the other hand, they have nukes, so that makes the situation more complex.

Great post Sunlight, I too am sick of all the little Chamberlains all over Europe and the lib media.

[Panzerbear]

this main post looked like one of the outtakes from vagina monologues .

Europeans already decided not to resort to any sanctions. that means they know better than our American fanboys .

[Applesmack]

I don't see the point of your post...Like at all ..Are you trying to say that NATO should attack Russia over Georgia? And your points about the military are mute, for history proves that statistics make very little difference. Look at Iraq. You have been fighting there for nearly 6 years now, and its not even close to ending. Look at vietnam. America got its but kicked by VIETNAMESE. You may be able to beat the Russian military, but an invasion against them would be laughable to even suggest. Good look occupying the largest country in the world, where EVERYONE hates you! Even then, Russia would never let itself get occupied and would nuke the US before it let that happen, so there is no way that the US can actually destroy Russia without destroying themselves.

[Boyar Son]

I don't see the point of your post...Like at all ..Are you trying to say that NATO should attack Russia over Georgia? And your points about the military are mute, for history proves that statistics make very little difference. Look at Iraq. You have been fighting there for nearly 6 years now, and its not even close to ending. Look at vietnam. America got its but kicked by VIETNAMESE. You may be able to beat the Russian military, but an invasion against them would be laughable to even suggest. Good look occupying the largest country in the world, where EVERYONE hates you! Even then, Russia would never let itself get occupied and would nuke the US before it let that happen, so there is no way that the US can actually destroy Russia without destroying themselves.

who you tryin to kid? really vietnam comparison? how we killed fools who's tactics were close to suicide charges.

I mean really no one here takes you seriously i wish i could un-rep you so people can get an advanced warning of your stalin lovin ass.

[Applesmack]

who you tryin to kid? really vietnam comparison? how we killed fools who's tactics were close to suicide charges.

You lost..The end of the war is all that matters like I have proved many times. You supported puppet regime in Vietnam, which you fought to defend with the lives of 56, 000 of your own men. Then, a peace treaty is signed in 1973 and you leave Vietnam under the promise that the US would return if the South is attacked. The Vietcog attack them in 1974 and you abandon South Vietnam, watching them be destroyed by Vietcog without even blinking. How sad....Shows the liar and traitor America really is.

I mean really no one here takes you seriously i wish i could un-rep you so people can get an advanced warning of your stalin lovin ass.

Well YOU certainly seem to be taking me seriously

[Smythes]

You lost..

Im going to joi nthe TF style of debating.

Afghanistan!

God, what a cr*p reply! I really dont rate your debating style..

[Carach]

Carach, going on a spam-rampage against me again? I provided a source every time someone asks for it. So please be quiet.

rofl. spam rage!

i had to lol in rl at this post. its so funny because its so amazingly untrue.

PS. Didn't you support the ridiculous claim that 45,000 South Ossetians fled into Georgia proper?

U mean the source that came from the United Nations? Yea, i guess i did. But hey... thats just the UN, i dont have anything like the overwhelming factual information at my fingertips that u appear to have coming from ur rather imaginative mind.

Lets read the first bit of ur post again about supplying sources. Lets just go with it for arguments sake (because wht u say is actually bs. u rarely supply sources, and decent ones are non-existent)... u claim to provide sources whenever anyone asks... i have yet to see u supply a source to counter the UN source.

Same old story with u mate. rubbish everything that proves u wrong. spam the same bs over and over until people get tired of trying to 'debate' with u.

[Nikitn]

rofl. spam rage!

i had to lol in rl at this post. its so funny because its so amazingly untrue.

I'm sure you did..

U mean the source that came from the United Nations? Yea, i guess i did. But hey... thats just the UN, i dont have anything like the overwhelming factual information at my fingertips that u appear to have coming from ur rather imaginative mind.

Umm, I never tried to disprove it. I merely said that South Ossetia is considered Georgia by the UN, and 45,000 refugees were 'displaced' inside Georgia. That will say, displaced in South Ossetia.

Lets read the first bit of ur post again about supplying sources. Lets just go with it for arguments sake (because wht u say is actually bs. u rarely supply sources, and decent ones are non-existent)... u claim to provide sources whenever anyone asks... i have yet to see u supply a source to counter the UN source.

Carach, tell me one single news article which supported this so called 'source'.

Same old story with u mate. rubbish everything that proves u wrong. spam the same bs over and over until people get tired of trying to 'debate' with u.

Ridiculous as in from an UN agency?

I believe you misunderstood the source. 45,000 were 'displaced' inside Georgia, and South Ossetia is inside Georgia according to the UN..

Feel free to find a more reliable source than that and disprove it.

I have red many news article about this entire war, and I haven't heard anything similar.. 45,000 fleeing into Georgia proper my ass.

Nobody said China will start arming Taiwan. Goddammit learn to read. Taiwan is currently engaging in talks about signing contracts with China to compliment contracts with the US, on a purely business level.

Umm, yes you said that. You said the Chinese will start selling military hardware to Taiwan. But now you say they are just talking about it? Please learn the difference between sending & talking.

PS. Provide a source, or your argument is worthless.

That is the most poorly organized wiki entry on the issue I have ever seen. Besides which, read your own goddamn link.

No, not really.

You must have missed the "According to President Chen Shui-Bian" part. This is the same president that's been at 6 impeachment trials, 4 for lying outright, 2 for corruption charges. This is the same guy who claimed in 2002, China detonated nuclear weapons under Taiwan to cause a major earthquake.

And..? He is a better souce then none This man does have credibility, even if he was exagerating the numbers.

Yes - there are missiles deployed along the Taiwan strait - but then, there even MORE missiles deployed six miles north of Kun Ming and even more than that along the Chinese northern border. Does that mean China is engaged in a cold war with Japan and Russia? I don't think so.

1. There are massive amounts of missiles (along with massive amounts of other war machines) deployed close to Taiwan.
2. Provide sources.
3. China & Taiwan have been in an arms race for how long? If one side gets an advantege, the other side must counter that advantege.

The US has several missile installations along the coast of Florida. Is the US in an arms race with Cuba?

Sigh*

Uh... sorry to burst your bubble, BUT HE ALREADY HAS.

"Ma stated that "for our party, the eventual goal is reunification, but we don't have a timetable,"

And that pissed of the entire party, and the choice is still for the Taiwanese people. Nevertheless, he later retracted the statement, and stated he would continue persuing the status quo polecy.

Please read the entire article next time .

Once again, from your wiki link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Ying...n_independence

You really should have red the entire article..

UHHHHHHHHH You mean the the piece of land given in the treaty of Nerkinsk in 1689?

And reversed in 1850.

The same piece of land occupied by the Japanese

Occupied by the allied forces, mind you. If you are reffering to the Japanese occupation of Manchuria during WW2, you are completely wrong.

but which was invaded and occupied by the communist party?

Do you even know what you are talking about? Outer Manchuria has been Russian for over 250 years. The population there is Russian as well. Taiwan simply can't keep on claiming terretory it has no chance of controlling.

Anyway, I gave you an example, and you just changed the point. How great!

It's TAIWAN vs. CHINA. Look on the map. Look at the numbers. There is no arms race between Taiwan and China. If your argument has any merit at all, it's an arms race between China and the US, with the latter using Taiwan as a proxy nation. But a casual glance at China's miniscule military spending compared to the US, either China doesn't really give a or GASP! There's NO ING ARMS RACE AND CHINA ISN'T EVEN TRYING

Before BSing so heavily, please learn the main role of the Taiwanese navy and air force. Look at the Taiwanese navy, forexample. They get new ships, the Chinese build new Anti-ship missiles. When Taiwan is expanding their airforce, the PRC is aquiring new aircraft.

PS. Have you heard? The Chinese have been threathining to invade for a long time if Taiwan declares itself an independant nation. That really made buying weapons easier.

Extremely free economy? Gee, aren't those the same goddamn words the november 2002 issue of Times Magazine used to describe uhhh... CHINA?

Stop using 10 year old magazines as credible sources on anything. Besides, what's your point?

You do realize Taiwan has more restrictions on trade than China, right? And that Taiwanese banks are nationalized while Chinese banks are subsidized to private investors?

And that matters because..?

Taiwans economy is relying on trade all over Asia. And therefor it needs to have a free economy..

PS. Why did you change your point? I thought you argued that Taiwan is only rich because of it's political status..

And the west is investing huge sums of money into China. China didn't get to be the economic giant it is today by sending away money.

And the Chinese are investing huge sums of money back..

Fat corporate owners? The majority of Chinese money in the US are from BONDS and DEBTS. The majority of US money in China are MOBILE ASSETS. So while the US can fairly easily hedge its bets and pull a good deal of money out of China (since China cannot freeze privatized funds), China has NO WAY to get its money back if the US suddenly decided to freeze Chinese assets.

By mobile assets you mean what?

As I said before, few private persons want to end their buisness in China because the government says so.

And did you just forget my point that China has invested huge amounts of money into US cooperations? That is worrying many US economists, stating it could be used against the US.

And if all Chinese money was pulled out today, it would seriously up the US economy.

That's why the Americans won't do any with the Chinese.

No it doesn't. The US economy is INFLUENCED by Chinese economy - not CONTROLLED. There's a difference.

Fine, and that 'influence' could hurt the US economy very, very deeply (more then the US can hurt the Chinese, forexample).

It's an international gesture done in front of 150 nations. What more do you want?

I just laugh at your argument because every other nation let's Taiwan participate, they call them Chinese Taipei (withouth questioning) and promicing 'fair play' shouldn't even be neccecary.

That's why, right before the games, in the election, from your own wiki source, "The junior partner in the Pan-Green Coalition, the Taiwan Solidarity Union, won no seats." RIGHT?

No. I'm talking about Taiwan wanting to boicott the olympics if the situation in Tibet worsened, and there was an argument about the name 'Chinese Taipei'.

I just listed them for you in my past posts.

Like which? Your olympic ?

What more do you want? It's like you're living in an alternate reality or something. I regularly go to Taiwan AND China, have often worked with press from both sides, and your argument that China and Taiwan are in some sort of perpetual cold war just makes me think you're from like... BIZARRO EARTH or something.

I never claimed that. I claimed that the relations are very bad between these two countries

It's like someone telling me the sky is green,

Your arguing that the sky is brown then.

and I'm forced to take a double check and make sure I'm on the same planet as this guy, and that his eyes aren't bloodshot from an overdoze of COCCAINE.

Damn, you do impress me . Just admit your completely wrong, and that the relations between these two countries aren't good at all.

[Dromikaites]

PS. Didn't you support the ridiculous claim that 45,000 South Ossetians fled into Georgia proper?

Ridiculous as in from an UN agency?

Feel free to find a more reliable source than that and disprove it.