Medieval Total War - Redux (Beta)

[GeorgiBG]

Congratulations about the wiki page, Axalon!

After reading it I though that someday someone can totally hack MTW and made it even better than the newest total war games. But why not if CA release it's source code this will be possible but dunno this maybe will never happen (already 10+ years had passed).

[Kirila the Kitten]

Believe Kirila, believe.
Install, and play

Yes, mighty lord, your command is my wish !

[Cyprian2]

Hope it works for you, Kirila. I had to play around with antialiasing in order to get MTW to work on my machine, but it's several years old...

Well, I just came back to Redux after some time, and it's nice to know that it (Redux) can still keep me up too late. I've been playing as the French, a complex and rewarding campaign. Think I'll try the Russians next.

As I've said before, Redux has some of the best rebels around. But I seem to recall them being a little more active in earlier versions (I'm talking mostly about land invasions, since they still rule the waves). Is this possible, Axalon?

Anyway, it's good to have a fine MTW mod which is still supported and in development. I look forward to what the future holds for Redux.

[Kirila the Kitten]

Yep, battles still the same
But the campaign looks great!
Still, maybe if the battles actually worked I would've played Redux but because I mainly play for the campaign I prefer the Vanilla...
Sorry Axalon, I still appreciate your work!

[itaki]

Hi
I'm really glad to hear that the redux version can play well in windows 7. Few years ago, I'm used to play the old version a lot. Want to play it again, I tried to install the redux version. But maybe I did some mistake. When I want to start the game and select campaign mode and then want to choose faction, I realize that there is no option to choose the faction in the menu. The same thing I experience when I choose the battle mode. I would really appreciate if there someone can help me to fix this

[itaki]

Hi
I'm really glad to hear that the redux version can play well in windows 7. Few years ago, I'm used to play the old version a lot. Want to play it again, I tried to install the redux version. But maybe I did some mistake. When I want to start the game and select campaign mode and then want to choose faction, I realize that there is no option to choose the faction in the menu. The same thing I experience when I choose the battle mode. I would really appreciate if there someone can help me to fix this

Oww.. and the print screen of the menu is here:

[/URL]

[Shadow_Imperator]

If only the province and faction limits could be both cracked for MTW, RTW and MTWII; I would love to see a barrage of old mods released for those games!
I'm actually reinstalling MTW1 just for this mod (and XL), might do a comparison!

[Joseph Simonyi de Vitézvár]

This mod looks really awesome!

[Sarissofoi]

Hey Axalon.
I must admit that your mod is extremely stable compared to others or vanilla. It work with no problems on Windows 7 when others constantly fall into pit of CTD. Amazing work. I have some spare tome so I decide to remodel your mod more into low setting. Work well.
BTW I notice that you add income to shipyard. How do you that?
I try add some income to blacksmith/horse breeders and port using the Gnome Editor but it won't work and I don't know why. Can you show me the light?

[Axalon]

Hi all and thanks for posting here guys. I'll try to comment on all
posts - whenever time allows. I'll edit in more replies here, later on...

I'm actually reinstalling MTW1 just for this mod (and XL), might do a comparison!

At this point it is probably a question of what you think of Redux and have the experience(s) of it changed your views on XL (or how you view it)? Are you still interested in comparing XL and Redux? Is anybody else interested in such a discussion? I tried after to stay away from that for years, but people keep coming back to it - again and again. So... I give up. Lets do it then. The context and discussion on comparing XL and Redux might perhaps end up as interesting after all... Well, any takers? Anybody? I see little reason to bother with it otherwise…

Well, I just came back to Redux after some time, and it's nice to know that it (Redux) can still keep me up too late. I've been playing as the French, a complex and rewarding campaign. Think I'll try the Russians next.

I would happily read about some game-experiences or even an AAR with the Russians in Redux should anybody decide to post up some. The Russians are probably tougher to handle then the French – as they typically have less cash (and not as many kinds of units available as well). I actually considered having a small public contest/challenge with the Russians as I released RXB1003 back in 2012 – but it never flied (too little activity from the community made me abandon the idea).

As I've said before, Redux has some of the best rebels around. But I seem to recall them being a little more active in earlier versions (I'm talking mostly about land invasions, since they still rule the waves). Is this possible, Axalon?

Possible, yes… I honestly don’t know, I have not investigated it. Was there anything particular you had in mind? If so, maybe I could take a closer look at it?

Anyway, it's good to have a fine MTW mod which is still supported and in development. I look forward to what the future holds for Redux.

I appreciate the sentiment Cyp. I do. Few people seem to consider that I have been working on and supporting Redux for some 5 years now (various incarnations). Most major projects for MTW have been finished or abandoned after some 2-3 years. Save Redux, I can not think of any other major project that have had that long development for MTW as 5 years (and counting). Anyhow, the future will at least see a RXB1004 release, or so I believe…

Congratulations about the wiki page, Axalon!

After reading it I though that someday someone can totally hack MTW and made it even better than the newest total war games. But why not if CA release it's source code this will be possible but dunno this maybe will never happen (already 10+ years had passed).

Thanks Georgi… Yeah I'm very happy that TWC-Content decided to do it. It’s wonderful for me to have a solid enough wiki that I can easily refer to and direct whatever people curious about Redux somehow. Saves a lot time and energy for me to focus on other things here. Anyways... Rearding “modding MTW to be better then newer TW-games”... In some ways/regards we are already there. In some, perhaps someday. In some, it will never happen. In some, we have been for years… All this if we disregard the possibility of a source code. The answer will ultimately be dictated by (applied) perspective and who we ask. I would not work with the MTW-engine if it were not the best in delivering what I actually want in my TW-experience. If another engine would do that better, I would work with that. So far, I see no substitute – so the MTW-engine it is…

Still, maybe if the battles actually worked I would've played Redux but because I mainly play for the campaign I prefer the Vanilla...
Sorry Axalon, I still appreciate your work!

Dear comrade cat Lenin… Playing Redux is utterly voluntary, always has been… If you want to disregard the possibility to play/try Redux because you want to stick to the raw MTW-experience – then that is your privilege and headache… I just think you would be foolish not to at least explore the alternative Redux offer you here - before you discard such an alternative - that regardless the battles (or whatever the problem was). It’s hard to escape that Redux is superior all over to raw MTW - performance, appearance, diversity and game-play etc. etc. – you name it. Check the Redux wiki, it should provide you with a pointer or two on what you are missing here. Anyhow, if such prospects don’t somehow appeal to you… What can I say? I give up. Redux is clearly then not for you. Have fun with your safe ‘ol standard MTW....

Hi

I'm really glad to hear that the redux version can play well in windows 7. Few years ago, I'm used to play the old version a lot. Want to play it again, I tried to install the redux version. But maybe I did some mistake. When I want to start the game and select campaign mode and then want to choose faction, I realize that there is no option to choose the faction in the menu. The same thing I experience when I choose the battle mode. I would really appreciate if there someone can help me to fix this

Sorry for the late reply and welcome to the forum Itaki… Now, umm... Weird... I have no idea how or why that happened (what GFX-card is it?)… Assuming here that Redux is 100% installed properly (I can't tell, for some reason I can not enlarge your print-screen, sorry). If it is… I suggest you consider changing GFX-drivers as that is my first and only guess on what is causing it. I can’t really come up with any other explanation that makes much sense. Redux does generally work very well on W7 and has for quite some time (ever since the release of RXB1003). So... Make 1000% sure you installed Redux correctly (and by the book) – after that and if the problem still prevails, then I suggest you change GFX-drivers. Other then that, I have few suggestions to offer here.

This mod looks really awesome!

It’s supposed to!

Believe Kirila, believe. Install, and play

That’s right folks, believe... Install and play… Redux is the way…


- A

[Sarissofoi]

Hi Axalon.
I got how you add income. Thanks for leaving information in startpos file.
Anyway trying to mod is fun. Especially when things start to work. Or at last when I know why they don't work.

[Axalon]

Hello Saris,

Great that things worked out for you there. I knew that bothering including such info/notes in the file would pay off at some point. So, I get that you are working ontop of Redux somehow, but what sort of project are you working on? Or is it merely some tweaking stuff to your personal liking? Or is it secret somehow or what? ...?...

- A

[Sarissofoi]

Greetings Axalon
Nah its not a secret.
Its even not a big project just time consuming especially that my modding skills were pretty low on start(and not so great now).
In short:
Making units into three segments:
A) Local units(militias and barbarians and other non or semi professional troops) based on area and factions[example for Franks]. Cheap, fast to train with various quality.
Basic Militias unlocked by Fort[Spear Militia&Archer Militia] or Castle [Halabardiers&Crossbows]
Infantry(melee and missile) recruited by Town Watch(renamed as Barracks) [Frankish Spearmen,Infantry&Crossbows]
Cavalry by Stable [Hobilars, Frankish Knights]
Some units need both [Cavalry Militia&Mounted Xbow]
Some units are unique to culture [Spear Militia&Archer Militia] or specific factions [Frankish Knights] where other are available for all [Frankish Spearmen,Infantry&Crossbows].
Overall different units to recruit in different areas sometimes different for different factions.
B) Faction&Culture units(semi and full professional soldiers). Solid but costly units. Take time to train.
Units recruit-able from Courts&Estate tree. [Feudal Infantry,Archers,Cavalry&Knights] plus special units Royal Court&Estate unique tree[Royal Guards&Knights]
Cavalry need usually Stables.
Solid core units for factions available everywhere but for a price.
C) Mercenary Units(based on culture and area)
Recruit able by Inn(now Mercenary Connections) sometimes with other requirements. [Sellswords, Mercenary Shieldmen, Pikemen etc]
Units are usually fewer in numbers take longer to form and are costly to maintain.

Simplified building tree. Barracks and Stable for Local unit, Courts for Culture, Inn for Mercenaries. Plus Weaponsmith(+attack), Armorsmith(+defense) and Drill Fields(+morale).
It of course involve changing units stats. Overall they increase in numbers, get lower stats and morale. Enemy and your troops rout more there is fewer fight to the death and there is no hero units.
Also changes to startpos including change of province ownership and overall downgrading of units and building(Forts everywhere).
Changing English to Britons(king Arthur send Saxons home) and give them Celtic unit rooster.
I am desperately in need for two or three more factions(even four); Turks(there is empty place in Asia Minor), Khazars(for Nomad warfare) eventually Scots(for savage Celt version) or Serbs.
Changing some building and connections between them to encourage AI taking right path in buildings. Also some buildings for pagans and nomads(including Huns).
Definitely need more non armored pics for units(cloth&leather armor) now I improves.

Overall it takes a lot of time. Its fun but I have few solid drawbacks when I mess and didn't know what so I need to scrap a lot of work and start over. Current state is pretty messy.

Strange things Muslim AI don't form new troops or so I think that. Which make them non aggressive and overall pushover. Dunno what I can do about that.
Also it is all just a training to prepare me to port Pike and Musket to Redux. But it is another story.

[Axalon]

Sounds interesting and pretty extensive... How do you manage all GFX? Do you rely on RX-material (renamed/reassigned), or using external materials from other projects, or creating new GFX yourself? Or all combined?

Strange things Muslim AI don't form new troops or so I think that. Which make them non aggressive and overall pushover. Dunno what I can do about that.

It might be that you have some unintentional/unforseen conflict(s) in your designs and the circumstances you created in the game. For instance, in raw MTW such problems/conflicts are very common all over and that is also why that AI typically perform so badly. Obviously, that in turn hurts the overall game and the experience it provides. Designs and game-circumstances must fit together in order to secure a functional and solid AI-performance. The more it does, the better... Its possible that you will have to provide some extra bonus to Muslim factions - as to compensate - or possibly change/re-design stuff as to secure better AI-performance on them. Just some basic principles/pointers here, for you to consider on that note...

- A

[Sarissofoi]

Yeah I know that mess something. Trying to influence AI building behavior by various method. It will work eventually. Or so I hope.
About GFX. Yeah use mostly yours and from vanilla(especially info pics). Also looking for additional sources from other mods but not really keen on using them. I plan making some by myself but for now I messing with units and AI. GFX are secondary objective right now.
Need more testing and I still learning what effect what.

[Axalon]

Yeah I know that mess something. Trying to influence AI building behavior by various method. It will work eventually. Or so I hope.

Well, (trying and) testing is a major part of modding, there are few exceptions to that... Few things in MTW are "quick fixes", if solid results are desired - contrary to popular belief among many gamers... Hopefully things will work out for you eventually. I had to test like crazy to get various desired/acceptable results in Redux.

About GFX. Yeah use mostly yours and from vanilla(especially info pics). Also looking for additional sources from other mods but not really keen on using them. I plan making some by myself...

Personally, I like consistency in style and I think you are right in staying away from other/external stuff (whenever GFX-time actually comes). There are some mods for MTW (no names, of course) that has like "27 different" styles on their info-pics. It gives a very sprawling and strange impression to say the least, and to me it looks unserious and sloppy. Consistency in visual style, will at least make your work - whatever it may be - look more serious in general. I made all my info-pics explicitly with the intent as to have them blend easily with all CA's visuals in MTW and the VI-expansion - made as if "these pics could have been" created by CA (while obviously they are not). All due to consistency in visual style...

- A

[Sarissofoi]

I agree. Consistency in style is important. Problem is that my mod is more into low settings and I definitely need more less armored and less professional looking pics. More axes, short spears and leather/cloth with less professional look.
I think I also need some more types of weapons in animation models. Will try to scavenge some from other mods.
Also was looking on textures in Pike and Musket mod - I am totally disoriented. Never mind now.

More I sit at this mod more I wanna change.
Thinking about remodeling units(also I am more into huge units than small one).
For example most infantry units will have very low charge(1-2) especially for short /light weapons. Throwing your body at enemy sharp sticks or blades isn't that good idea if you wanna survive or even kill enemy.
So cavalry(especially lancers) will be main SHOCK(charge) units. It will be their main stats. Overall cavalry will be less numerous(range from 10 to 60 most common 20-40) but with great charge and morale.
Spear units armed with short spear and barbarians or militias will not have rank bonus and will be often impulsive but short spear will be often seen with large shield when long spear units will have smaller one if any. To fight in formation you need training and some level in discipline. Disciplined units will also have bonus to defense. They also offer bonus to defense against cavalry but not so much to attack. Main stat is defense and numbers.
Sword units are most balanced with great attack and good defense(also shields) but they will have penalty against cavalry especially non disciplined one.
Axe will be more common on east(in Slavic and Rus lands). Good attack low defense - similar to sword but cheaper and with AP.
Pike units will be more common and actually I look at Pike&Crossbow&Lancers late armies full of professionals compared to early militia&feudal&barbarian&warrior&tribal troops. Still some nations won't have access to massive professional units.
Definitely wanna add more factions but its hard. Turks are most needed but Scots, Khazars and Berbers will be nice and Serbs or Armenians not bad. Wanna fill all the map but not want add one province faction. Changing borders is easy though.
English will change to Britons and have Celtic army(mix Irish&Scots&Feudal units). They will also get Orthodox culture to show Roman(Greek) influence and distinct them from feudal Franks.
Scots if I add them will have catholic culture.
Lithuanians will change to Baltic Pagans and control whole south coast of Baltic Sea from Brandenburgia to Finland. Mostly light&cheap units and limited tech tree.
Latin countries(3 Franks, 3 Iberians and 2 Italian factions) will rely heavy onto spear infantry and heavy cavalry with some local units.
Iberians will have access to light swords and skirmishers(foot and horse).
Franks to some poleaxe units and heavy cavalry.
Italians will have reliable often disciplined foot soldiers with limited cavalry.
All have great choice of mercenaries.
Slavic&Rus&Hungary will have access to solid militias and warriors with core professional units. Axe&spear will be common.
Slavic(Poland) will have strong infantry but limited(good) cavalry option(not so heavy compared to West).
Rus will have mostly infantry with Norse influence and Nomadic&light noble cavalry.
Huns will have mix of Slavic warriors and Nomadic troops.
I will give them(Poles&Huns) Orthodox culture to show distinction from Latin Western Kingdoms.
East Roman Empire will have fast access to professional units rather fast but they cost and take time to train. Even militias will be well trained but training units need infrastructure and time.
Plan to add Berber faction and give them North Africa as a core with Sicily&Sardinia as a bridge to invade Italy.
Moors will stay in Iberia fighting Iberian kingdoms.
Saracens will move to Egypt&Palestine when Turks will control most of Asia minor and Syria.
Adding Armenia and Khazars(pagan nomads) will fill rest of the map.
Some territories will be destined to rebel with opposite culture/far away garrisons/no buildings but it is for securing more dangerous faction reappearances.
I find a good guide how to add more faction. Before I try to learn from other mods trying to backtrack what they did but well... in short I just make everything messy. But now with this guide it will go smooth. Some other forums are a mine of information but sometimes I need to dug through a mass dirt to find valuable one.
Problem is that I constantly find something t change. It can take ages. But hey it is still fun.
Thanks for help Axalon.
BTW Can you share what you use to make a new Info pics? I remember that I read about it somewhere but didn't take notes then and now its a pain to dig it again. Lesson learned - always take notes.
Thank again for producing Redux.

[Axalon]

Hello again Saris... That’s quite a big post you got there (and plenty of ideas too)… Ummm…

I think I also need some more types of weapons in animation models. Will try to scavenge some from other mods.

In general, the MTW-engine can only make distinctions between swords, axes and clubs - anything else beyond that is bound to be cosmetical and little else. Clubs only have a few SFX attached to it and I think that the difference to axes and swords stay just there - as in SFX and little else. Battle animations with shields and weapons are a real pain to do. It took me ages just to get proper animations for Redux – the raw game is not helping any either as it does most such animations very poorly, it usually looks more like crap then not. Floating swords and misplaced shields etc. etc. Redux has, to the best of my knowledge, eradicated all that crap with new and proper animations (thank god!). I used to say that battle animations is one of the best examples as for why it is fair to say that the original MTW is a mess, and how sloppily it was made (engine instability and save-corruption is other such examples). In short, it was rushed into service. It is game with great potential, a great framework but on an engine that never was top notch. GFX of course has always been a weak point in anything CA ever made and its true in raw MTW as well. But I digress…

Thinking about remodeling units (also I am more into huge units than small one).

Obviously, you are free to do whatever changes you deem desirable, yet it might be worthwhile to keep in mind that Redux does unit balance very well (using default) on overall terms - the more you screw around with units somehow, the more likely it is that this balance can or will be lost. Achieving general balance is typically very hard. Just saying.

Definitely wanna add more factions but its hard.

Personally, I am possibly one of the few (?) that is not that keen on having too many factions around, this for many various reasons. All the same, you are free to do whatever changes and additions on factions you deem desirable for your private project for Redux. My advice, should you want it, would be for you to consider each faction you want to include very carefully – along the lines of: “is it worth it? Including faction X into the game? What will it/that truly bring to the table? How can/will it truly serve and benefit the overall game-experience? Etc. etc. If you got a convincing “yes” on all such questions then include that faction X.

Also, the MTW-engine handles multitude of factions very poorly – as illustrated is the raw game for instance (XL is yet another famous example). With CA designs it creates typically poor AI-performance overall. Redux 18 factions are probably more factions than is healthy for MTW-mechanics – and it has fewer factions than most other major stuff done for MTW, including the raw game. I don’t know the exact ideal number for it but I would imagine that it is about 10-12 factions for optimal general performance – assuming that the game is paired with healthy and functional designs of course (something that is not really the case in the raw MTW, as many of us already know). I have previously commented on “more factions stuff” in previous posts… See post:235 this thread, for instance. It might be relevant in this context.

If you still think it is a great idea to include a bunch of new factions, by all means go ahead. All I do here is to point out that adding more factions is not without drawbacks on various levels and it not a universal remedy for securing more action in a game.

BTW Can you share what you use to make a new Info pics?

I use Photoshop… Umm… Typically it involves re-using original VI/MTW infopics, usually - either in part or as a whole… Putting it together in some new form, creating new, distinct stuff out of it. Adding some stuff of my own to it. Sometimes the results are very good, at other times not so good. As can be expected. Anyhow, I try to have pics as good as raw MTW at least (which btw suffers from the very same problem/circumstance).

Thank again for producing Redux.

Thanks right back at you.


- A

[Axalon]

Redux News....



As of RXB1004, this is how the grand map in Redux will look like - in terms of design. The difference is only a few things, yet the changes are not without importance at regional levels. An extra sea-region outside Flanders to draw “heat” from the English Channel (which it does very nicely, during tests) - in effect cutting the old channel-square into two separate squares. The new (north) square will be called “Flemish Coast” and will add more flexibility to the region, and the English coastline gets another sea-square for potential seaborne-invasions (England gets slightly more difficult to defend). The Malta channel is out (it had too little traffic to warrant a continued place in the game) and will in effect be merged with the “Gulf of Gabes”-square. In North Africa, I have redrawn the borders of Tunisia, Mauritania and Tripolitania for increased dynamics and possibilities in the region. Crusades can now bypass the Tunisia altogether on their way to "the holy land" from Spain etc. Other then that there is no planned changes on the map so far…

Any comments?

- A

[GeorgiBG]

What this colors means?

Any changes to the MTW map are well accepted from my side. And Im very glad to see that finally we will have new version after some time.