Ossetia and Cyprus

[alhoon]

Facts simplified, given as neutrally as possible from a Greek. (Personal opinion below):

Ossetia: Georgian army attacks Ossetian rebels killing Ossetian civilians (recognised as Russian citizens) in the process. Russia attacks Georgia. They claim they do this in order to protect the Ossetians and liberate S.Ossetia, establishing independance.
Hundreds die, thousands lose their homes both on Ossetia and in Georgia.

Most Western nations condemn them and say this is unacceptable. Most Western nations say Russia used that just as an excuse to put some more land at hand and secure it's backyard.


Cyprus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus_..._Invasion_1974

Greek nationalists attack the Turkish Cypriot minority. Turkish army attacks Cyprus, takes 10% of the island. Peace talks. Greeks refuse to badge, Turks refuse to badge. Turks attack again, taking control of 36% of the island. Ceasefire.
Thousands die or go missing. Two hundred thousand Greek and Turkish Cypriots had been displaced.

Situation remains unresolved for 34 years. You won't hear 1/10th of the complains about Turkish occupation on the island of Cyprus from the Western nations that are so keen to condemn Russia.

Similarities: If it's not obvious, both Turkey and Russia attacked a region allegedly to protect a minority. In the case of Russia it was Russian citizens, in the case of Turkey it was Turkish minority.

Differences: Turkey is in NATO. So after 34 years the Western responce to this is "Hey guys, you should leave sometime, come on".


PERSONAL OPINION: I'm Greek. I'm biased. HOWEVER:
From Wikipedia (above)

"The vast majority of the Turkish occupied area was predominantly populated and owned by Greek Cypriots prior to 1974. In the process about 160,000[2] - 200,000[3] Greek Cypriots who made up 82% of the population in the north became refugees"


"violations of Human Rights by the Turkish army have been acknowledged by the European Court of Human Rights"

"On August 14, Turkey demanded from Clerides acceptance of a proposal for a federal state, in which the Turkish Cypriot community (who, at that time, comprised about 18% of the population and owned about 10% of the land due to long-time ethnic cleansing and Greek pressures) would have got 34% of the island. Clerides asked for 36 to 48 hours to consult with the Cypriot and Greek governments, but Turkey refused to grant any consultation time, effectively ending the talks. Within hours, Turkey had resumed its second offensive. By the time a new, and permanent, ceasefire was called 36 per cent of the island was under the control of the Turkish military"

Comments:
- Greek nationalists attacking Turkish cypriots. OK, it happened. I admit it's shameful for our nation. However the attacks were not an ethnic cleansing as the Turkish propaganda claimed.

- We overthrew our dictator 3 days after Turkey invaded Cyprus. The Georgian goverment is still in place.

- Wiki says the Turkish Cypriots were 18%. I have spoken with Cypriots, that remember they had a single nation once, and they say these figures are overblown. In the 10% that the Turkish cypriots had, many were Greek Cypriots. So I guess the Turkish Cypriots were 10-12% prior the invasion. EDIT: As RomeKb8 said, my guess isn't very reliable. Perhaps I'm wrong. I just tell you that some people (perhaps wrong) don't accept that the Turkish Cypriots were so many.

- Turkish goverment placed Pakistani and Turks from deep within anatolia to the tens of thousands formelly Greek houses that were emptied by force.

- Many Turkish Cypriots remained in the South, in their homes. They were not and they are not the targets of genocide or ethnic cleansing, unlike our Greek brothers in the North.

[wilting]

Considering that the Turkish Cypriots voted for unification but the Greek Cypriots voted against it, you won't find much sympathy from me for the Greek Cypriot population.

As for the comparison, so what?

[Romanos IV]

Considering that the Turkish Cypriots voted for unification but the Greek Cypriots voted against it, you won't find much sympathy from me for the Greek Cypriot population.

As for the comparison, so what?

Oh, come on, I can't here such arguments.

The Turk Cypriots voted 65% yes and 35% no.
The Greek Cypriots voted 24% yes and 76% no.

so 56% of Cyprus said no.

The poll showed that more than the 1/3 of the Turk Cypriots said no, so it's wrong to say : "Turk Cypriots voted yes, while the other voted no."

[wilting]

The poll showed that more than the 1/3 of the Turk Cypriots said no, so it's wrong to say : "Turk Cypriots voted yes, while the other voted no."

Nonsense. Referenda are based upon majorities, obviously not all of the Turkish population voted yes and the Greek population no. You might as well argue that a yes vote is a no vote.

Also, to vote for "reunification" would be recognizing the legitimacy of Turkish rule. Thats why you don't see Greeks voting for it. The Greeks don't hold all the cards, otherwise they'd have Cyprus all to themselves now wouldn't they? A vote would be giving legitimacy as well reunifying the island on Turkish terms. unacceptable to the Greeks

This is exactly my point. A compromise was reached, but the Greek population didn't accept it, so why should I have any sympathy for them, when it is the Turkish population that is ostracised by the international community? You can't seriously argue that the Greek view is somehow superior or better than the Turkish view; they have to deal with each other to resolve the issue, they have to compromise, it doesn't matter who is 'right'. The Greek population can afford to pass up on a compromise to the detriment of the Turkish population.

[Eastern Roman]

This is exactly my point. A compromise was reached, but the Greek population didn't accept it, so why should I have any sympathy for them, when it is the Turkish population that is ostracised by the international community? You can't seriously argue that the Greek view is somehow superior or better than the Turkish view; they have to deal with each other to resolve the issue, they have to compromise, it doesn't matter who is 'right'. The Greek population can afford to pass up on a compromise to the detriment of the Turkish population.

Maybe is my point of view but when you are driven from your home and not allow to return back and not given back your rightful properties which all was stolen and taken by foreigners (considering many today Turk-cypriots came from mainland) you can't simply get along with it, especially when this happened 30 year before.

[white-wolf]

Maybe is my point of view but when you are driven from your home and not allow to return back and not given back your rightful properties which all was stolen and taken by foreigners (considering many today Turk-cypriots came from mainland) you can't simply get along with it, especially when this happened 30 year before.

Are you aware that same thing can be said for Turkish Cypriots?

[Bleda]

Well I totally agree with you. Theres just countries that are more untouchable because of the political climate, alliances, treaties and so fourth. Thats politics. But I believe Cyprus should go back to the Greeks, to my understanding, since 1974 the Turks have immigrated in mass there since then, like a Turkish colony.

[wilting]

But I believe Cyprus should go back to the Greeks, to my understanding, since 1974 the Turks have immigrated in mass there since then, like a Turkish colony.

Are you suggesting that the Turkish Cypriot population should be forcibly expelled?

Remember, Turkish Cyprus isn't recognised by the West, it is Greek Cyprus with the majority of the population and land that is an EU member. The Turkish population, as I already said, voted for unification but the Greek population rejected it. Seems to me the Greek Cypriots hold all the cards, so I don't know what else you might be suggesting, other that the Turkish population be expelled.

[BlackAkula]

(They should give all the West-coast of turkey back and make Greece the country it was, muahaha)

[Romanos IV]

(They should give all the West-coast of turkey back and make Greece the country it was, muahaha)

Was that even mentioned?

[Norge]

(They should give all the West-coast of turkey back and make Greece the country it was, muahaha)

They should give all the East-coast of Greece back and make Turkey the country it was, muahaha

[Romanos IV]

They should give all the East-coast of Greece back and make Turkey the country it was, muahaha

Not mentioned either... I would give you both negative reputation if I could.

[Phalanx300]

(They should give all the West-coast of turkey back and make Greece the country it was, muahaha)

(Agreed)

[alhoon]

(Agreed)

Heh... And what would Greece do with about 15-20 million Turks? In the next elections... BAM... Turkish goverment, Greece joins Turkey.

[Bleda]

Are you suggesting that the Turkish Cypriot population should be forcibly expelled?

Remember, Turkish Cyprus isn't recognised by the West, it is Greek Cyprus with the majority of the population and land that is an EU member. The Turkish population, as I already said, voted for unification but the Greek population rejected it. Seems to me the Greek Cypriots hold all the cards, so I don't know what else you might be suggesting, other that the Turkish population be expelled.

Did I say anything about expulsion? Those two countries like to expel one another's populations from their territories, I guess if thats their thing. But the territory itself should be administered by the government of Greece, as it was entirely ruled by Greece before the Turks invaded.

[Bleda]

Are you suggesting that the Turkish Cypriot population should be forcibly expelled?

Remember, Turkish Cyprus isn't recognised by the West, it is Greek Cyprus with the majority of the population and land that is an EU member. The Turkish population, as I already said, voted for unification but the Greek population rejected it. Seems to me the Greek Cypriots hold all the cards, so I don't know what else you might be suggesting, other that the Turkish population be expelled.

Also, to vote for "reunification" would be recognizing the legitimacy of Turkish rule. Thats why you don't see Greeks voting for it. The Greeks don't hold all the cards, otherwise they'd have Cyprus all to themselves now wouldn't they? A vote would be giving legitimacy as well reunifying the island on Turkish terms. unacceptable to the Greeks

[Oglethorpe1983]

On the Turkey-Greece issue... not sure if you guys know this..but te US came dangerously close to getting involved. My uncle was in the army at the time (stationed in Germany) My father just happened to be visiting him at the time....

there was a knock on the door... and they woke my uncle up and took him right to the base.... there was about a 12-24 hr period where he was on "red alert"....

so that could have led somewhere really nasty....

[Romanos IV]

that's wright!

[Crimson Scythe]

The main difference between Ossetia and Cyprus is that Turkey's action there was permitted by treaty. At least the invasion in 1974 was. Between 1974 and 1983, there was an occupation, but after the north declared independence (1983) and permitted the Turkish troops to stay, there's kind of a gray area (which kind of parallels the Russian presence in Abkhazia and S. Ossetia, which is supported by the breakaway regions). Russia's pretext for attacking Georgia was manufactured during the time just prior to the actual invasion, rather than being codified in a treaty 14 years earlier (as in the Cypriot case).

[Bleda]

The main difference between Ossetia and Cyprus is that Turkey's action there was permitted by treaty. At least the invasion in 1974 was. Between 1974 and 1983, there was an occupation, but after the north declared independence (1983) and permitted the Turkish troops to stay, there's kind of a gray area (which kind of parallels the Russian presence in Abkhazia and S. Ossetia, which is supported by the breakaway regions). Russia's pretext for attacking Georgia was manufactured during the time just prior to the actual invasion, rather than being codified in a treaty 14 years earlier (as in the Cypriot case).

The North may have declared its independence and permitted troops to stay but there is no gray area because Turkey is the only country in the world that recognizes Northern Cyprus as its own state. Its basically the Turks giving themselves permission to stay there. As far as everyone else is concerned, the military presence of the Turks is legally invalid because an article of the treaty allows for military intervention only after the approval of the UN Security council, approval which was never sought after or given.