Dhimmi?

[Noremac]

This is what a dhimmi is in Islam. I know Judaism, Christianity, and Sabaeans (Mandaeans) but what other religions should be included?

You can vote for more than one.

[finsternis]

This is what a dhimmi is in Islam. I know Judaism, Christianity, and Sabaeans (Mandaeans) but what other religions should be included?

You can vote for more than one.

How are Buddhists people of the book? When did Buddhists got hold of the Torah? And when did they worship the god of Abraham?

[Noremac]

How are Buddhists people of the book? When did Buddhists got hold of the Torah? And when did they worship the god of Abraham?

That's why they are on the poll. Because under People of the Book they are listed in there and are considered by some as Dhimmi.

Hindus didn't do any of the things that are listed by are considered by some as Dhimmi also.

Sikh and Baha'i are usually not included in the Dhimmi because both were created after Mohammed and the fact that the Baha'i believe Mohammed was a reincarnation of God and some other things.

Chinese traditional, Shinto, Taoism, and other pagan beliefs are considered kafirs.

What does Islam say about New Age religions? I mean like Scientology. They would probably be kafirs also but you never know.

[finsternis]

That's why they are on the poll. Because under People of the Book they are listed in there and are considered by some as Dhimmi.

Hindus didn't do any of the things that are listed by are considered by some as Dhimmi also.

Ok, then I say Christians and Jews. Don't see why the others should be called that (except for political and humanistic reasons).

@ Gauvin

What's with the anti-Islam userbar? You just posted this:

Until prejudice and open descrimination and government, non-government oppression of Christians and religious minorities ceases to exist in the Muslim world, I won't find it funny. Even in liberal Muslim countries you see this, which was witnessed only the Friday before last when Muslims in Indonesia physically forced Christian theology students out of their school, they're now taking classes in tents.

You think this happens in the Muslim world only? Christians are just as bad (if not worse). I couldn't think freely in my Catholic school and I still couldn't talk freely in my High School without being shun and hated by everyone else. And a lot of Muslims and other non-Christians are harrassed in the western world (if not officially, then unofficially).

So I think you should change your userbar from Anti-Islam to Atheist. Or better yet, to Kongist.

Praised Be He Who Is Both King And Kong!

[Gauvin]

@ Gauvin

What's with the anti-Islam userbar? You just posted this:

It says anti-Islamist, not Anti-Islam, which is my no.1 concern. I could care less if someone believes Allah is God, so long as they don't try and enforce it on others, or try to spread the faith through fraud. For instance, if women are being threatened or harassed for not wearing hijab by religious police, then I feel it's my duty to oppose such a system that doesn't give a people the choice to follow their religion the way they want. Also, if I overheard a Muslim trying to convert someone by saying Muhammad was the best human being ever to exist, I feel it's my duty to inform them of the immoral and tyrannical things that Muhammad did. Wouldn't you do the same in a similar situation?

Islamism is a political movement, they're inspired by Muhammad, and his companions who established theocracies during their time. Muhammad would be considered, himself, an Islamist, if he were living today, which gives their movement all the more validity among many devout Muslims as those trying to restore the state and society that Muhammad and his companions forged more than 1400 years ago.

Since I opppose all forms of totalitarianism, such as Communism, Fascism, and the Catholic Church (when it actually had a lot of influence and power), how could I just ignore the most popular and relevent totalitarian movement of the modern era which is presently causing casualties worldwide? Seems that would be an ignorant and inconsistant thing for me to do.

You think this happens in the Muslim world only?

I didn't say that..... but it's much more overt, and often sanctioned and imposed by certain Muslim governments.

For instance, a now famous blogger in Egypt was arrested for saying things that were anti-Islam, after he witnessed violence against copts at the hands of the growing wahhabist sect in Egypt, and for complaining about what he saw was Al-Azhar (where he was a student) teaching extremist views. He is still in prison.

www.freekareem.org

Descrimination in Egypt and many Muslim countries, doesn't exclude Muslims who think for themselves!

Christians are just as bad (if not worse)?

When was the last time a Christian killed a Muslim for simply being a Muslim, how many cases can you name? I can give you many cases, of Muslism targetting Christians, including cases in "modern" Muslim countries, such as Turkey, where a man was killed for publishing Bibles. Or just the case last week in Indonesia. The argument that, religious descrimination happens everywhere, and its all in equal measure is about the most absurd and most evasive argument there is.

Have you heard of Affirmative Action? In the U.S. whites were actually descriminated against in favour of blacks with the same credentials or qualifications, that was the policy. In Canada, natives have more rights than I do, they don't pay income tax, and they go to university for free, while I have to pay $5000 a year. Why? I was born here, although I didn't always live here. Muslims can worship anywhere they like. You can pray on a street corner. I don't advise you to go and say a Christian prayer in public in Saudi Arabia, however, that's a sure way to be expelled from the country. But, same thing right?

Your comparaison is cheap, and frankly stupid, and it's what happens when you only think, or question as far as it proves what you want to believe, sometimes you're required to go further.

As I said, state-sponsored descrimination is very different. Especially sate-sponsored descrimination inspired by religion.

[finsternis]

It says anti-Islamist, not Anti-Islam, which is my no.1 concern. I could care less if someone believes Allah is God, so long as they don't try and enforce it on others, or try to spread the faith through fraud. For instance, if women are being threatened or harassed for not wearing hijab by religious police, then I feel it's my duty to oppose such a system that doesn't give a people the choice to follow their religion the way they want. Also, if I overheard a Muslim trying to convert someone by saying Muhammad was the best human being ever to exist, I feel it's my duty to inform them of the immoral and tyrannical things that Muhammad did. Wouldn't you do the same in a similar situation?

Oh you mean a person who belongs to a political movement based on religion? I though you were talking about Muslims.

But anyway, it is not islamism that you are against, you are against religious fundamentalists and totalitarians (so am I).

Since I opppose all forms of totalitarianism, such as Communism, Fascism, and the Catholic Church (when it actually had a lot of influence and power), how could I just ignore the most popular and relevent totalitarian movement of the modern era which is presently causing casualties worldwide? Seems that would be an ignorant and inconsistant thing for me to do.

You are against Totalitarianism and religious fundamentalism. So I think you should change your userbar to that, not just Islamism (it can be confusing).

I didn't say that..... but it's much more overt, and often sanctioned and imposed by certain Muslim governments.

For instance, a now famous blogger in Egypt was arrested for saying things that were anti-Islam, after he witnessed violence against copts at the hands of the growing wahhabist sect in Egypt, and for complaining about what he saw was Al-Azhar (where he was a student) teaching extremist views. He is still in prison.

www.freekareem.org

Descrimination in Egypt and many Muslim countries, doesn't exclude Muslims who think for themselves!



When was the last time a Christian killed a Muslim for simply being a Muslim, how many cases can you name? I can give you many cases, of Muslism targetting Christians, including cases in "modern" Muslim countries, such as Turkey, where a man was killed for publishing Bibles. Or just the case last week in Indonesia. The argument that, religious descrimination happens everywhere, and its all in equal measure is about the most absurd and most evasive argument there is.

The Crusades? The KKK? The White Supremacists organization (like Arian Nation)? The millions upon millions of Native americans who were killed by Europian Christians (in the colonial era and in modern era. Canada was systematically kiling a lot of Native Americans in canada with the help of the Church up until the 60s)?

And don't make me go into the hindus. In conclusions, all religions are evil.

Have you heard of Affirmative Action? In the U.S. whites were actually descriminated against in favour of blacks with the same credentials or qualifications, that was the policy. In Canada, natives have more rights than I do, they don't pay income tax, and they go to university for free, while I have to pay $5000 a year. Why? I was born here, although I didn't always live here. Muslims can worship anywhere they like. You can pray on a street corner. I don't advise you to go and say a Christian prayer in public in Saudi Arabia, however, that's a sure way to be expelled from the country. But, same thing right?

I know. I do not like affirmative action, but I can understand why people want to do it. And about canada, as I said above, a lot of them were killed by the goverment up until the 60s (not that far ago). So i understand if the goverment wants to make up for it. And people are still racist againt them (overt, as you said) so their economic and polotical power has gone down bottom because of all the things the goverment did. You cannot expect them to just rise up and compete fairly after that and with the current racism against them.

Same things goes for Blacks and Hispanics in the USA. You cannot hold down a man since forever and then, long after the race started, release him and say "you can now compete fairly". That is not fair.

So in a race prespective, I like affirmative action. In a person prespective, I do not like it since it says that I cannot get my own rewards.

[Noremac]

Ok, then I say Christians and Jews. Don't see why the others should be called that (except for political and humanistic reasons).

Mandaeans because the Koran has them listed. They were called "John the Baptist" Christians because of their belief John the Baptist was one of the most powerful prophets. They are a Gnostic group that used to live mainly in Souther Iraq, until Saddam. They say Jesus was a false prophet though and they say Jerusalem is the most evil city in the world.

Many consider Zoroastrianism to be Dhimmi because of the similarities.

After that is just speculation.

[Ummon]

What an interesting thread.

[Valentin the II]

Yazidi?

[Pivra]

Dhimmi sounds like a very cute name...

[Serious Spamurai]

All of those were, or would be, counted as Dhimmi under Islamic law. In India, on many occasions, Hindus and Buddhists were counted as Dhimmi, so Faiths like Sikhism, Baha'i should be counted. However, on the religious non-legislative level, I can't say.

[Gauvin]

Serious Spamurai, I thought you were loyal to the Qur'an and Hadith. According to those two, only Christians and Jews qualify to pay the Jizyah, and maybe the Magians, who are Zoroastrians, in hadiths referring to the exploits of the Caliphs. The only reason the Muslims extended the dhimma to other religions was for income, and practicality. Why kill people, if you can tax the crap out of them?

Btw, this thread is disgusting, no religious group should be required to pay a punitive tax to another. Shame on you religious supremacists.

You should be calling for equal rights.

[Noremac]

I'm not a Muslim and I don't believe in a single religion's supremacy. Just wanted to see what people thought.

[Gauvin]

I'm not a Muslim and I don't believe in a single religion's supremacy. Just wanted to see what people thought.

Thought about Dhimma? That's what I thought.... but then I saw a list of religious groups... and can't figure out what you hope to learn from this.

Kafir money is always good, stops them spending it on drugs, alcohol and gambling.

That's prejudice.

[Serious Spamurai]

That's prejudice.

No, it's what we call a "joke" .

[Serious Spamurai]

Kafir money is always good, stops them spending it on drugs, alcohol and gambling.

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

Kafir money is always good, stops them spending it on drugs, alcohol and gambling.

We have a winner!

Edit: By the way, non-Muslims aren't required (though they can if they want) to take up arms for the protection of the state/city whereas it's mandatory for Muslims to fight in case of an attack. Moreover, Muslims also pay a tax, which is called Zakat. Lastly, I'm pretty sure Jizya would be a lot less than what Western governments tax their people for these days. They even have congestion taxes and what not. It's crazy.

[Gauvin]

We have a winner!

Edit: By the way, non-Muslims aren't required (though they can if they want) to take up arms for the protection of the state/city whereas it's mandatory for Muslims to fight in case of an attack. Moreover, Muslims also pay a tax, which is called Zakat.

Dhimmis weren't allowed to carry arms (obviously because they LOVED Muslim rule!), unlike the Muslims. I thought you knew that. If a dhimmi was found to have arms it would void his status of dhimma, and he could be executed.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure Jizya would be a lot less than what Western governments tax their people for these days. They even have congestion taxes and what not. It's crazy.

The Jews of Khaybar paid 50% of their farm output to the Muslims, in order to stay in Khaybar (though they were eventually expelled.) Muslims pay 2.5% in Zakat (mandatory "charity")......................... no comparaison.

[Major.Stupidity]

The Jews of Khaybar paid 50% of their farm output to the Muslims, in order to stay in Khaybar (though they were eventually expelled.) Muslims pay 2.5% in Zakat (mandatory "charity")......................... no comparaison.

Why Charity in quotations O Gauvin? Is that supposed to denote the Zakat going to "terrorist groups"?

[Gauvin]

Why Charity in quotations O Gauvin? Is that supposed to denote the Zakat going to "terrorist groups"?

No, the fact that obligatory charity, isn't really charity at all. If a Muslim during the time of Muhammad didn't pay zakat, he could be declared a mortad, or hypocrite and killed. That'd be like saying my taxes are charity, no doubt some of my taxes go to social programs, to social welfare, but if I don't pay taxes, I go to jail. It's not my choice, so it's not charity. Understand? That's all I meant.