Are swords any good?

[caralampio]

Supposedly spears own horses, horses own swords and swords own spears in the rock-scissors-paper system of M2TW. People are always complaining of not having swords and having to do with only spears in the early game. Swords rule! Or do they?

I remember in vanilla DFK ruled, but maybe because of their huge attack and defense. In SS DFK seems to sustain big losses against any unit even peasants. Let alone the lesser sword units like swordsmen militia, they fall like flies.

I've been testing swords units vs spear units with the exact same stats (say 4/15 vs 4/15) and while the swords seem to have an edge it is very small.

The question is: Do swordsmen really have any anti-infantry advantage? Or, are they just another unit, stats are the important thing, it doesn't matter if you carry a spear or a sword?

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Overall I'll take spears over swords any day. Spears role-wise are more flexible{anti-cav, line holding/pinning}
But don't ingore the vital role swords play in Mixed combat arms senarios..When the stuff hits the fan you want swords backing up your spears.

[jsktrogdor]

Overall I'll take spears over swords any day. Spears role-wise are more flexible{anti-cav, line holding/pinning}
But don't ingore the vital role swords play in Mixed combat arms senarios..When the stuff hits the fan you want swords backing up you spears.

Aye, I remember blowing hundreds of florins recruiting and upkeeping advanced units of swordsmen, first battle against the danes I underestimated the AI calvary. They made a B-line for the swordsmen in the middle of my column. By the end of the battle the 400 or so swordsmen there were like 40.

I agree now that I would now take spears over swords, I'll probley still train and use them. Just less of them and probley behind front line, maybe on the side of the second row for a flank.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Thanks Jsktrogdor & aduellist. It's good the be the king. I my case, good to be vindicated. Or at least someone else sharing my appreciation for "pointy sticks" & Mixed combat arms..

delra... Post #7. As always right on the money!

[delra]

Swordsmen are good against militias and other weakly armoured folks. They usually have armour advantage over their enemies too. If you want to disassemble an armoured spearmen unit, you're most of the time better off sending maces or axes there. Swordsmen are just not that good against armoured targets.

[aduellist]

Pin with spears + flank with swords = rout

Disclaimer: All generalizations are false, including this one.

Swords are excellent when used in the proper role, abysmal when used improperly. They get slaughtered by cavalry (rightly so) and don't do well against more armored targets (again, rightly so).

As Megas Tortas said, combined arms is the key.

[delra]

It's harder for spear lovers though. There aren't many elite spear units, all costly guys in shiny armours don't quite like fighting with a spear and prefer maces and swords instead. Spear is considered a peasant weapon. The best spearmen in the game, Kievian ones come from biggest city with town hall upgraded to the max. And you can have their level swordsmen from some dirty poor castle. That's just cruel.

[aduellist]

It's harder for spear lovers though. There aren't many elite spear units, all costly guys in shiny armours don't quite like fighting with a spear and prefer maces and swords instead. Spear is considered a peasant weapon. The best spearmen in the game, Kievian ones come from biggest city with town hall upgraded to the max. And you can have their level swordsmen from some dirty poor castle. That's just cruel.

True. Spearmen aren't "sexy", but with rare exceptions they'll be the mainstay of your armies throughout.

[obbob]

well, the spearmen animations, when facing a swordsmen unit...they just look so helpless. All they can do is poke em, while you go knights swinging their blades. Swords just look better, except when bracing for a charge, spearmen look better then.

[SuperStick]

When facing the enemy I fear more the sticks with points then the finely crafted blades

[Navajo Joe]

I hold them with my Spearman, then I advance my psychos with the Swords, Maces and Axes and drop my spearman back. Then outflank with Cavarly and game over!

[caralampio]

In conclusion the best overall infantry unit is spearmen... I mean multirole, ready for anything. A solid line of armored sergeants sprinkled with cavalry and missiles should cover all the bases?

The other unit types seem to be too specialized: Keep them in the rear. Use them to flank. Intermingle with other guys to defend them.

Ergo, factions with poor spearmen are at disadvantage?

[delra]

The problem is that they are helpless against any sort of AP infantry. Varangians can cut through Armoured Sergeants like it was butter.

Generally who I consider most efficient in the game are AP heavy infantries. Give them a mace or an axe and you are sure they will be armoured infantry killers. Even dismounted druzhinas and norse clerics with 3 points attack excel in that work.

The Ultimate Units of Doom though are AP cavalries with a lance (so Norse Clerics who charge holding their maces don't count). They hit hard with a charge and then mop up with maces or axes.

Sword kind of stays behind AP weapons with each year that passes. The more armour your targets have, the more you need AP attribute on something. Once enemies start churning out armoured swordsmen stacks themselves, you will be glad to have crossbowmen and AP infantry stacks instead of swordsmen or spearmen ones.

Seriously, late in the game there's hardly any faction that could use their spearmen against all those 7/22 swordsmen gods of battlefield. Kiev is one of them. Maybe Hungary with their Pavise Spearmen too. But... who else?

On a sidenote, every time I play factions who can train crossbowmen and medium AP infantry in cities (aka Russians), AI just can't conquer anything from me.

[OSDEA7]

I find that mixing swordsmen right in the spearmen line creates a great defensive line.When enemy swords men come in to attack spearmen the swordsmen are quite effective.And on the reverse the spearmen protect the swordsmen from cavalry.I always mix my units together in the same columns and it has worked very well with the enemy units ending up routing.I then run them down with cavalry.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

caralampio... For having the right type of prejudice, +Rep. Spears Rule!!!!
{Disclaimer: They rule sometimes...,:hmmm: well more like now & again with lots of help From Mixed combat arms friends.}

[Vasquez]

I only really use swords as wall stormers, or in a pinch reinforcing a hard pressed front line. Pikes and Spears for me too.

[Blakdust]

Spears make a better line than swords but a few swords just behind the line is helpful
an even then I'd prefer some two-hand axes or maces, I guess a line of swords would do better against an infantry army with maybe spears on the flanks esp since as someone mentioned you can get higher tech'd swords than spears

[OG Grenadier]

I don't think weapon upgrades work the way they do in vanilla. All a weapon upgrade equates to in SS is a chevron of experience.

[delra]

Weapon upgrades were giving +6 or +8 points of attack instead of +1 (or sth like that, ask Point Blank, he remembers better than me) they were supposed to give. Imagine 7/21 swordsmen with +6 weapons upgrade in RC. Totally unbalanced. And that's why it was changed to experience

[OG Grenadier]

What if you don't play RC?