MAP discussion

[NikeBG]

This is the political map which we'll be using for BGTW 3, as it can be seen in the very first post of this thread (the only possible difference is that the Arabs might eventually be invading as a horde to represent the second Arab siege of Constantinole, but that's not yet certain):

The map of Tsar Simeon's Bulgaria is obviously from a far later date and, I fully agree with Kavhan Isbul, has some rather big inaccuracies regarding the lands to the north of the Danube. As for the "territorial gains during Tsar Simeon's reign", let us not forget the border marking inscription of Narǎš f.e. Anyway, this version of the map seems to show the situation a bit better, although (again) it has nothing to do with the BGTW maps, since we don't have a campaign set in Tsar Simeon's times (for now, at least).

[alien_t]

...As a Bulgarian, I agree that the map of Bulgaria at the end of the reign of Tzar Simeon may be debatable, especially regarding many of its Northern and North-Western borders, as evidence indicates that a lot of territory was lost to the Magyars and other territory was given to the Pechenegs....

I posted this map only to be used for info about approximate town, castles locations/names on the strat map, not for faction's regions distribution or something other.

EDIT: If somebody have map with such info(major towns/castes) as much as close to 700AD let post it. We could use it if better.
For example like that:
Map of the Byzantine Empire 668 AD
and that:
Map of the Byzantine Empire 780 AD
but with info about towns/castes not only in Roman Empire.

Actually as the NikeBG said it previously our main problem is we don't have much info about towns/castes in the Avar's lands.

[JimboJones]

However, I am sure JumboJones will have a hard time denying that during the Middle Ages, military presence was perhaps the single most important factor in the establishment of borders - in those days you could only claim ownership to what you could control.

Nothing bogus about that, unless you have forgotten to take your pills, JumboJones. You know - those green pills your psychiatrist prescribed you - you should start taking them again, and regularly.

Huge difference between having a horde running some land and actually owning it and running it and taking some advantage from it, not just ravaging and raping.


And the pills are red or blue. I took the red.

[NikeBG]

And your point is?

[alien_t]

Huge difference between having a horde running some land and actually owning it and running it and taking some advantage from it, not just ravaging and raping.

Do you have a better map or some document related to topic of the thread which we could discuss?
In other case I'll just start deleting your posts.

Btw according to your logic the vast Mongol Empire never existed... Don't understand me wrong. I'm not comparing any of the "little people groups in the Balkans" with mighty Mongol hordes.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Huge difference between having a horde running some land and actually owning it and running it and taking some advantage from it, not just ravaging and raping.

I completely agree - during the 5th century, when Bulgarian warriors joined the Avars in their raids in Thrace, this certainly represented expeditions for the purpose of plunder and not for the purpose of conquest.

However, after Bulgaria was established in 681 AD, the Bulgarian campaigns were clearly aimed at conquering and keeping land (or defending already conquered land), and the Bulgarian state was quite sophisticated with a feudal system and meticulous tax collection from all subjects. Those subjects who attempted to overthrow the suzerainty of the Khan were punished promptly, as the Timochans were during their attempted rebellion with Frankish support in the early 9th century.

Considering that Simeon and Petar's troops not simply ravaged the country side, but also took most strongholds in their path, then the war time border did indeed represent an area under Bulgarian control, even if for only a few years.

As explained already, none of the debatable provinces will be starting provinces for the Bulgarian faction at the beginning of the game. Many, if not all of them, could be victory conditions for the Bulgarians, which I am sure will not detract from you playing experience regardless of which faction you choose.

As for me, I am eagerly awaiting the release ov BTW v3 - I would like to play the mod before making any suggestions on improving it.

[gogo t]

Totally bogus map. Having rampaging hordes in an area does not give you a claim to it. All of Bulgaria's "conquests" were quickly undone to the point where they were subjugated again. If all the little people groups in the Balkans had as much territory as they all claim, the Balkans would its own continent.

And who the hell are you
If you don't like it- don't read it and don't use the mod



//Hope you are Hungarian, cause (PFC) Levski Sofia is coming //

[k1ller1988]

Totally bogus map. Having rampaging hordes in an area does not give you a claim to it. All of Bulgaria's "conquests" were quickly undone to the point where they were subjugated again. If all the little people groups in the Balkans had as much territory as they all claim, the Balkans would its own continent.

Rampaging hordes ??? Do you know anything about bulgarian history .The Bulgarian army and policy was very strong and well constructed at that time .The Bulgarian state was a dominent power on the Balkans durring that time period .Bulgarians are not some hording people they builded massive cities from stone and are expert builders .This is not common for nomads .

[NikeBG]

Please, people, this is a discussion about the mod's map, don't let it become a historical one (for which there is the Vestigia Vetustatis btw, if anyone really wants to discuss history). Besides, such posts only feed the trolls, so I don't think it's necessary to continue...

[alien_t]

Please, people, this is a discussion about the mod's map, don't let it become a historical one (for which there is the Vestigia Vetustatis btw, if anyone really wants to discuss history). Besides, such posts only feed the trolls, so I don't think it's necessary to continue...

That's right
We will just start deleting any unbacked & unconstructive posts without warning!

[Dmitar_Zvonimir]

Why don't you change "Slavs" to "Serbia" and "Arabs" (???) to "Turks" (or Ottoman Empire depending on timeframe)? The map is btw.

Another possible (and IMO quite interesting) faction: Wallachia, replacing the "rebels up north. There should be other rebels in remote areas (ex: Bogomils in Bosnia, rebellious greek princes).
Didi you think of the Duchy of Achaïa, founded during the late period by "latin" crusaders?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...nian_Highlands


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia...Bulgarian_wars

Croats are not Serbs