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Thread: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

  1. #121
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    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    and armour around 10 for good armoured units and also 2-3 for unarmoured units
    ... this is circa yours in PI. We have in 58bc only 1 point armour for unarmoured guys, and pretty different armour values for armoured units (while unarmoured guys have also 7 - 9 shield if carrying a scutum or other large shield, and have, along cultural capabilities, quite high defense skills, sometimes around 10, ie. "barbarians" or other skilled warriors.

    So if you stay with 2-3 for unarmoured units, i would set the javelin / pila to around 6 or 7 / 8 or 9 at max, if coded along such a model, that i described above.

    ---

    Other thing:
    I would give the following codes to Roman drilled infantry (as they were already at this time):
    - Hastati, disciplined and trained (and eventually slight higher morale)
    - Principes, disciplined and highly_trained (and eventually slight higher morale)
    - Triarii, disciplined and highly_trained (and eventually slight higher morale)

    This, to make them different from the other italic warriors of that time.


    ---
    EDIT
    Ups, now i see you have all this already in that way. Strange, i thought i saw 10 for pila/javelin and ap by elites.
    Now with your javelin/pila values, i would only suggest to get rid of the ap and keep the other values, and just eventually reduce the range.
    Quoting myself:
    the in PI used javelin/pila attack of around 10, if i recall properly, is more than enough to reflect its power, imo. too much, to reflect the historical (un-)accuracy in the battle chaos. And well, get rid of ap anyway.
    Only a bit questionable: 3 for a javelin, and for arrows and stones also 3?

    Perhaps either increase the simple javelin to 4 or 5 or reduce the arrow and stone to 2?
    Of course a javelin has a bit more power than an arrow or a stone.
    Last edited by DaVinci; October 15, 2008 at 11:11 AM.
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  2. #122
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    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    Here's how armor is counted in PI:

    - greaves +1
    - arm protections +1
    - leather or sinew head protections +1
    - metal helmet +2
    - perizoma +1
    - metal breast plate +2
    - bronze triple disc cuirass/bronze squared cuirass +3
    - linotorax +3
    - leather short cuirass +2
    - leather cuirass +3
    - reinforced linotorax +4
    - lamellar cuirass +5
    - short muscolar plate cuirass +5
    - iron-mail cuirass +6
    - muscolar plate cuirass +6

    Your suggestions regarding javelin values sound good Davinci - Aper - try them!
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  3. #123
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    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    I edited my last post.

    The armour stats sound good. Eventually i wouldn't go that restricted, or not always along these stats per unit creation ... here and there a bit gameplay adjustment to balance the factions, ie. in my projects i take always the historical gameplay in high attention, for example, i wouldn't let the Roman AI come down to its knees easily due to a limitation by such a model ... or any coding models, especially in regard of all codes in any files, that have a significant AI affect.
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    #"there can be no doubt about it: the enemy stands on the Right!" 1922, by Joseph Wirth.
    Rightwingers, like in the past the epitome of incompetence, except for evilness where they own the mastership.
    Iirc., already 2013 i spoke of "Renaissance of Fascism", it was accurate.
    #"Humanity is in ‘final exam’ as to whether or not it qualifies for continuance in universe." Buckminster Fuller
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  4. #124
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    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    Yes, you're right on the matter. But huge deviations shouldn't be applied either to avoid non realistic results!

    EdiT. So about projectiles you practically suggest that we raise all javelin attacking values for one or two points, get rid of AP and decrease the range (in comparison to our current defense values). Correct?
    Last edited by Hister; October 15, 2008 at 11:30 AM.
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  5. #125
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    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    I would reduce the range, yes, just to get a higher historical feeling.

    As for the javelin values, you have indeed only a few ap for the pila guys, i would remove that, and leave it all as is.
    And i think i would reduce arrow and stone to 2 attack (or indeed increase the javelin of 3 to 4).

    It gets higher stats, if applied the missile building upgrades, anyway.

    --

    Actually, in 58bc, i removed all the smith and any other weapon upgrade building boni

    Instead, if these buildings needed or wanted, these buildings could provide:

    - trade income (for weapon trade)
    (- eventually exp points)

    The weapon upgrades indeed count in a complete other way as exp points, far stronger, and this is mentionable as a disbalance affect (or exploit), as i think, the human player always builds its constructions in a more senseful way than the AI.

    In addition, i think, in this period, it isn't very historical accurate, that weapons/armour got an improvement.
    #Anthropocene #not just Global Warming but Global Disaster, NASA #Deforestation #Plastic Emission #The Blob #Uninhabitable Earth #Savest Place On Earth #AMOC #ICAN #MIT study "Falsehoods Win" #Engineers of Chaos
    #"there can be no doubt about it: the enemy stands on the Right!" 1922, by Joseph Wirth.
    Rightwingers, like in the past the epitome of incompetence, except for evilness where they own the mastership.
    Iirc., already 2013 i spoke of "Renaissance of Fascism", it was accurate.
    #"Humanity is in ‘final exam’ as to whether or not it qualifies for continuance in universe." Buckminster Fuller
    Any chance for this exam? Very low, the established Anthropocentrism destroys the basis of existence.
    #My Modding #The Witcher 3: Lore Friendly Tweaks (LFT)
    #End, A diary of the Third World War (A.-A. Guha, 1983) - now, it started on 24th February 2022.

  6. #126

    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    :hmmm:a few days a go i saw an eagle standard article about paenisula italica total war., and i saw some awsome images about ancient rome.it is done this amazing project or it is abandonaded?
    thanks
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=109082

  7. #127

    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    Sorry if I quote myself
    Quote Originally Posted by Aper View Post
    About javelins, I don't like the traditional way to portrait pilum-like weapons (adding the AP attribute), because this make them more effective against armored enemies than against unarmored ones : but historically the purpose of the metallic javelin was to penetrate the shield, and hit the unprotected flesh behind it, not to pierce armor! It's the contrary, the armor is the only valid defence against them! Since the AP attribute don't affect shields, it makes AP javelins perform in an unrealistic way, and so it should be discarded IMHO, and replaced simply by a raise of the attack value. If you agree I'll change AP javs accordingly, I'm waiting for your opinion
    About slings well, the debate is open... According to http://www.slinging.org/ and the EB team they should be more effective and have a longer range than bows, particularly western ones, but the bows have the advantage that they can be used in quite tight formations, when the sling need a lot of space, and the bowmen have actually more ammunition than the slinger... In war slingers usually used common stones only in emergency situation, normally they carried their projectiles, that could be simple river-stones, or made of pottery or metal, and obvioulsy similar ammos take more space in a bag than an arrow...
    Haven't done yet for lack of time and because I was searching a solution for the hoplite issue...
    However, if metallic javs were really supposed to be only marginally more effective than regular ones, and had the same pourpose of just harassing the enemy, why anyone should waste precious and valuable metal to make them? I think there should be a LOT of difference between them and wooden javs...

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    Of course a javelin has a bit more power than an arrow or a stone.
    I disagree, actually is the opposite, because stones and arrows are much faster, parthian arrows are recorded piercing shields and balearic slingers could shatter them, not mentioning the blunt trauma caused by the stone that can easily break bones, the advantage of the jav is the larger mass, that prevent the missile to be easily deflected, and the more than any other thing, the jav requires INFINITELY less training to be effective, when archers and slingers have to train daily for years to reach a good level of skill (balearic fathers didn't allow their sons to eat if they didn't train for example)

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    Other thing:
    I would give the following codes to Roman drilled infantry (as they were already at this time):
    - Hastati, disciplined and trained (and eventually slight higher morale)
    - Principes, disciplined and highly_trained (and eventually slight higher morale)
    - Triarii, disciplined and highly_trained (and eventually slight higher morale)

    This, to make them different from the other italic warriors of that time.
    mmm, I'm rather skeptical about "disciplined" for roman soldiers, actually is more a Renaissance prejudice than reality, legionaries were just as ferocious as gauls, the difference is that gauls didn't have magistrates that condamn you to death penalty if you attack without orders! but there are plenty of examples of roman soldiers in bloodlust that disobey or strongly contest thei commanders because they wanted to attack no matter the circumstances : to make some famous examples, the habit of romans of attacking like an enraged bull allowed Hannibal to ambush and slay them countless times. At Pidna, the soldiers almost revolted when Emilius Paulus tried to delay a frontal (suicidal) attack against the phalanx, and don't you remember about Gergovia? that was not the exception, but the rule : roman soldiers were more disciplined than gauls only when their commanders lead them to attack as soon as possible ; when commanders tried to delayy the immediate attack, from the Cunctator to Julianus the apostate, they faced the enraged opposition of soldiers : romans were not robots like phalangitai, they were heroic warriors as they were disciplined soldiers, and that was one reason of their strenght

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    In conclusion, they are not a good unit played on the AI's side, if the player takes all exploits to kill them.
    The only way to have decent battle AI in RTW-BI-ALX engines is to add proper army formations and use a lot of house-rules. However, from my tests my latest hoplites are very strong and easily defeated only if their battle line is in complete chaos or they are attacked from the rear : their performance seems quite fine to me
    Last edited by Aper; October 15, 2008 at 01:19 PM.

  8. #128
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    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    Lord Willy, Ancient Rome hasn't been included due to the CTD's it caused.
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  9. #129
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    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    from my tests my latest hoplites are very strong and easily defeated only if their battle line is in complete chaos or they are attacked from the rear : their performance seems quite fine to me
    I speak of the AI using hoplites in shield wall.

    Javelin vs. stone and arrows: (and i discuss the theme here only in regard of the PI mod, and not generally ... valid for everything that i have written here )

    1. Do you have Balearics and Cretans in this mod?
    2. And i'm sure, a javelin thrown nearly horizontal* with a range of about 20-30 meters has more power (and damage) than an arrow, which is normally fired with a degree up to get an proper height/range.

    And in the model, that i tried to describe, the projectiles push against a shield. Take this in consideration. Then you'll understand what i mean. And it is a minor thing for me, if an arrow or stone has ie. 2 or 3 attack, and a javelin 3 or 4 ... this actually doesn't make a huge difference. In the end you can of course have the same attack stats for them, no problem imo., and would reflect realism well enough.
    Unarmoured guys and lack of proper shield will get its "realistic" losses in either way with these stats anyway.

    *unfortunately not properly displayed in RTW.

    The only way to have decent battle AI in RTW-BI-ALX engines is to add proper army formations
    Not the whole truth ... a sensible edu and mount.txt coding helps a lot to make slight AI improvements (besides unit animations).
    Last edited by DaVinci; October 15, 2008 at 01:47 PM.
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    #"there can be no doubt about it: the enemy stands on the Right!" 1922, by Joseph Wirth.
    Rightwingers, like in the past the epitome of incompetence, except for evilness where they own the mastership.
    Iirc., already 2013 i spoke of "Renaissance of Fascism", it was accurate.
    #"Humanity is in ‘final exam’ as to whether or not it qualifies for continuance in universe." Buckminster Fuller
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  10. #130

    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    I speak of the AI using hoplites in shield wall.
    I'll test more

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    1. Do you have Balearics and Cretans in this mod?
    2. And i'm sure, a javelin thrown nearly horizontal with a range of about 20-30 meters has more power (and damage) than an arrow, which is normally fired with a degree up to get an proper height/range.
    1. yes
    2. About attack of ranged weapons : Pilum-like javs > Balearics/Cretans > regular javs > regular slings/bows : what do you think about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    Not the whole truth ... a sensible edu and mount.txt coding helps a lot to make slight AI improvements (besides unit animations).
    ... What do you mean specifically? Thanks

    EDIT : Anyone knows the other effects of "impetuous" stat_mental, apart from make the units charge on their own? ( but they never do this anyway)
    Last edited by Aper; October 15, 2008 at 02:15 PM.

  11. #131
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    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    ... What do you mean specifically? Thanks
    I think he means that the AI considers the edu-values in battles. If you want frontalcharges with your legionares set their attackvalure and their lethality higher than phalangites. If you want more flanking set them lower etc.
    descr-mount.txt specifies the mass of the mounts. If a horse has high mass it will penetrate enemy formations better but will be more vunerable against attack since they are more surrounded. If they have scare infantry attribute(which some mods do) they will affect more enemyunits if they penetrate their formation(radiusbased).

  12. #132

    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    guys, the attack value in the EDU does not denote how powerful or lethal a weapon is. it determines whether or not a hit is made. in RTR i base this number on the skill and training of a unit and not the type of weapon used.

  13. #133

    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenogoras View Post
    I think he means that the AI considers the edu-values in battles. If you want frontalcharges with your legionares set their attackvalure and their lethality higher than phalangites. If you want more flanking set them lower etc.
    If this work, it can be immensely useful. That idiotic AI always try to outflank my swordmen with hoplites, that is completely senseless.
    Thanks!

  14. #134
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    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    About attack of ranged weapons : Pilum-like javs > Balearics/Cretans > regular javs > regular slings/bows : what do you think about this?


    One more generally meant:

    - Pila units are trained units ("soldiers") in my understanding, and have therefor anyway a better attack, despite the invention of the metal top of the javelin, which shall stuck into the sheild to make the shield bearer "static".
    - Javelin units not actually trained "soldiers", with of course exceptions, where trained units carry also javelins.
    - Slingers, in the ancient world, nearly every young man learned to use a sling for hunting animals. But, they never could afford their usual skill in a battle. Contrary of course, if they are Balearics or other slinger-"soldiers".

    So in the whole, i would always take care of the unit (its cultural/traditional skill etc.) who carries a weapon. But what i have seen you doing this ... eventually here and there could be some adjustments.

    ---

    AI, edu etc.:

    - All the stats and codes lead the AI, exclusively, it is 100 % dependent of the coding that we are doing (besides hardcodes) . Everybody knows the ie. the disadvantage of phalanx units, so they for example need extra consideration if played by the AI (a decision is needed: shall i provide them along realism stats or do i give them extra advantages? ... as one example only).
    - This is contrary to the human player, what is self explainable. So in oder to set up a decent combat balance, it needs the view from the AI, and not from the human player, to realise the combat model along my understanding at least.
    - A test where you play a unit and you judge then "my unit x behaves proper" isn't very helpful. You need to set up tests, where you would simulate an AI vs. AI fight. And then mod the possible scews again and again, until you have the desired result, that unit x behaves vs. unit y in a way that takes consideration of realism, gameplay, and here most important, AI support.
    ... a long road this can be
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  15. #135

    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by Aper View Post
    If this work, it can be immensely useful. That idiotic AI always try to outflank my swordmen with hoplites, that is completely senseless.
    Thanks!
    i've noticed that in custom battles, the AI unit will try to outflank if they are weaker than your unit.

  16. #136
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    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenogoras View Post
    I think he means that the AI considers the edu-values in battles. If you want frontalcharges with your legionares set their attackvalure and their lethality higher than phalangites. If you want more flanking set them lower etc.
    descr-mount.txt specifies the mass of the mounts. If a horse has high mass it will penetrate enemy formations better but will be more vunerable against attack since they are more surrounded. If they have scare infantry attribute(which some mods do) they will affect more enemyunits if they penetrate their formation(radiusbased).
    What Athena says ... he recently got my full faith for re-modding the ChivTW combat model (what i did always alone all the years), means a lot adjustments are in work by him to carry out the last possible AI improvements via the edu file).

    It needs a lot of testing ... a strict combat coding along realism stats and a math model can't be the only goal, it is a first approach as basement, then go ahead and test test test and this from the view of the AI.
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    Rightwingers, like in the past the epitome of incompetence, except for evilness where they own the mastership.
    Iirc., already 2013 i spoke of "Renaissance of Fascism", it was accurate.
    #"Humanity is in ‘final exam’ as to whether or not it qualifies for continuance in universe." Buckminster Fuller
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  17. #137

    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by mcantu View Post
    i've noticed that in custom battles, the AI unit will try to outflank if they are weaker than your unit.
    Exactly, the problem is that the AI doesnt count the boni of shield-wall formation, because they make hoplites much stronger than ensiferi, but the AI still try to outflank the player. It's a big problem.

  18. #138
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    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    i've noticed that in custom battles, the AI unit will try to outflank if they are weaker than your unit.
    My guess is the AI considers number of units, attackvalues and lethality weather they are going frontal or flanking.
    My advice is to study other mods and their battlesystems. Thats what I did.
    I downloaded RTR-TIC just to study Mcantus edu.

  19. #139
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    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by Aper View Post
    Exactly, the problem is that the AI doesnt count the boni of shield-wall formation, because they make hoplites much stronger than ensiferi, but the AI still try to outflank the player. It's a big problem.
    There are quite multiple issues with the shield wall and AI ... in conclusion, i decided a long time ago, to not apply the shield wall in mods where i have the say about the edu
    Edit: but of course, it is neat (and for some units historical accurate) to have the animation, and if this reason is more important, then i also would decide to apply it ... i personally didn't as yet.
    #Anthropocene #not just Global Warming but Global Disaster, NASA #Deforestation #Plastic Emission #The Blob #Uninhabitable Earth #Savest Place On Earth #AMOC #ICAN #MIT study "Falsehoods Win" #Engineers of Chaos
    #"there can be no doubt about it: the enemy stands on the Right!" 1922, by Joseph Wirth.
    Rightwingers, like in the past the epitome of incompetence, except for evilness where they own the mastership.
    Iirc., already 2013 i spoke of "Renaissance of Fascism", it was accurate.
    #"Humanity is in ‘final exam’ as to whether or not it qualifies for continuance in universe." Buckminster Fuller
    Any chance for this exam? Very low, the established Anthropocentrism destroys the basis of existence.
    #My Modding #The Witcher 3: Lore Friendly Tweaks (LFT)
    #End, A diary of the Third World War (A.-A. Guha, 1983) - now, it started on 24th February 2022.

  20. #140

    Default Re: Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    There are quite multiple issues with the shield wall and AI ... in conclusion, i decided a long time ago, to not apply the shield wall in mods where i have the say about the edu
    I was just thinking of discard shield-wall... Actually, I think it's is quite problematic..
    It makes me angry that the new wonderful formations of BI are in fact so crappy

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