Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

[hellas1]

Hi all,

I have a suggestion:

More Greek presence in southern Italy!

Athens and Sparta DID have a presence but P.I. at this time doesn't reflect that fact. I don't know about Epirus. Pyrrhus, yes. Epirus, I don't know!

Thanks,
hellas1

[Aper]

I'll ask you two guys again what happens when you combine the light_spear attribute with +4 attack? I haven't spotted anything disturbing and so far battles are perfectly balanced. Why would we need to do additional changes if current system is working fine? Am I missing something?

Aper, I suppose AI controlled hoplites will be routed easily after your changes 'cos they use hoplites in an "unsmart" way! Have this in mind when you'll be balancing the edu. I'll try your suggestions though and see how this feels in the battle.

:hmmm: Of course will not happen anything bad combining +4 attack and light_spear, but I was interested in seeing if we can mantain balance without arbitrary boni ... my goal is to make an EDU "realistic" as possible, in which stats are adjusted reflecting historical and material evidences, and not simple an arbitrary balance... I will test some battles against hoplites to see how the AI handle them.

EDIT : it seems we were too much pessimistic regarding AI hoplites. If I don't outflank them, and don't use the pilum, they often win. If I use the pilum and don't outflank them, it's a substantial draw. If I use the pilum and outflank them, I always win. Problematic is the idiotic AI that often try to outflank me, losing the formation in the attempt. This happens only before the first clash however, if I disengage they charge me straight on. The stats are that I posted last, during the discussion with Mcantu

EDIT 2 : the AI wins even attacking because it use shield-wall, that is very effective if the enemy don't outflank you (I don't). However after a long fighting formations go to hell, and begins a wild melee in which elite swordmen like Ensiferi Messapii are advantaged, and often winning. This is good to me, what do you think about this?

EDIT 3 : I tried the AI tactic (attack with shield-wall on, guard mode off) and I gain easy victories! I was quite surprised... the key to win for hoplites is AVOID BEING OUTFLANKED nothing else matters. Defending (letting the enemy attack you, putting guard mode on) you don't even need the shield-wall, but if you use it and manage to protect your vulnerable flanks and rear, using average hoplites you will defeat elite swordmen!

EDIT 4 : to portrait the more cohesive fighting style of hoplites without make them vulnerable to encirclement, the only way is give them more men, 50 instead of 40. This is not unbalancing because in wild melee they still lose badly, but make them stronger than ensiferi in tidy line vs. tidy line. Maybe their cost should be raised accordingly...
This is the latest file, good only for test Hoplitai Krotoniatai vs. Ensiferi Messapii : I've changed only them. Notice the doubled pilum attack (that is still uneffective against shield-wall, but deadly against unarmored shielded units : not too much however) and remember that hoplites show great superiority only with shield-wall on and when their battle line is still tidy ; the old tactic (guard mode on, shield wall off) is still effective, but only staying idle, as before.
Another important thing : I play Medium battles (of course) and HUGE unit size.

EDIT : old file removed

[Hister]

Erm, where is the latest file?

Edit: Okey, thanx, will try it.

[Aper]

the problem is that in small and normal unit size the ensiferi still win easily.
Maybe I can give back to hoplites a little bonus to attack, or we may try the way of tweaking weapon' speed : the dory should be a little faster than a sword IMO...:hmmm:

[Hister]

Yep, maybe that could fix the issue - uhh, thanx for doing all this Aper!

[Hister]

I've tried your latest file with ensiferi messapi and hoplites krotoniati. I played hoplites (huge unit setting), set them in shieldwall and guard mode and left them alone. Although I had superior numbers I lost the battle! Give them bonus to attack and higher weapon speed - hoplites must win!

[Aper]

that's a little strange : probably they outflanked you. Defending, in 1 unit vs. 1 unit is better put off shield-wall, because it shorten your line and make your wings be outnumbered and collapse. If you attack, shield wall is fine because your men are more active and more resistant to outflanking, just be sure your line is at least as long as that of the enemy.

However, a little more attack speed has a great positive effect on hoplites, I think you will find this file more satisfying.

EDIT : old file removed

[Aper]

A VERY IMPORTANT question for Hister : since now it's not only a matter of fixing lethality values, shouldn't I follow the Real Combat adaptation for PI? I ask because you didn't mention it yet... :hmmm:

[Aper]

Thanks Mcantu! Do you know the exact values? but I guess shield-wall gives a bonus to shield, because even a javelin with 16 attack it's almost useless against it However until ensiferi seems to die faster than hoplites a guess it's fine

[Hister]

A VERY IMPORTANT question for Hister : since now it's not only a matter of fixing lethality values, shouldn't I follow the Real Combat adaptation for PI? I ask because you didn't mention it yet... :hmmm:

You are free Aper to do as you wish since I know that you have a very good story behind your changes and since RC will also be used in M2TW PI you'll do two things at once (RTW PI EDU stats will be copied to M2TW PI EDU) and spare me the time for rebalancing the M2TW PI edu!

Definitely aper - go ahead!

[Aper]

Guys, I'm an IDIOT! The key to rebalance hoplites is the only stat I left untouched until now!!!

I have adjusted the stats following strictly RC for PI, this are the changes for hoplites : -1 defense, -1 to shield, -10 to unit size, -15 TO ATTACK DELAY, and, believe or not, now they ROCK!!!

Just have always shield-wall on, guard mode off if you attack, guard mode on if you defend, you'll win. Period.

EDIT : old file removed

[mcantu]

just FYI guys, using shield wall increases a units defense but lowers its attack rate.

[Hister]

Great great Aper! Will try out!

Davinci, you have a point there - we shall see how AI hoplites perform after latest Aper's changes.

[DaVinci]

A note about the javelin and pillum codes, now after i took a look into the edu above:

We had a quite proper discussion about the ancient apply and power of pila and javelins as we created the FRRE 58bc mod. In the end bucellarii, one of the best historians that i know for the ancient periods, came up with the following conclusion:

- a javelin/pila volley didn't take that much damage as usually the attacked unit raise their shields if they were aware of that volley.
-> no ap (and our missile attack is 5 for javelin and 6 for pila)

- to take overall an effective power and get a proper realism reflection in this regard, the range of javelins and pila should be reduced
-> pila 25 ; javelins 30 and max 35 for elite javelin guys (as Numidians were, respectively their cavalry, for example)

The javelin and pila attacks had its main purpose to give the attacked unit a shock (for prec units) and keep them at bay (not prec units), the accuracy was very seldomly that good that a javelin thrower could afford a secure kill in the reality of a battle ... as you know, the battle reality isn't a Olympic Game/ Sports Competition.

[mcantu]

IIRC, the AI almost never uses shield wall...

[DaVinci]

IIRC, the AI almost never uses shield wall...

As far as i can recall in PI, though it uses it (hoplite units), but not that well, that's the problem.
They stay in this formation no matter what happens, and that way, are very static and an easy victim for the human player to encircle them, or you can reduce them easily with missile fire from all sides, and the AI shield wall keeps its slow move if it tries to "defend" that missile fire.
In conclusion, they are not a good unit played on the AI's side, if the player takes all exploits to kill them.

As static line, they are quite ok, if the human player attacks them only from the front side. But also here they get encircled automatically. On the other side, this is quite realistic.
Only unrealistic is, if the AI keeps the shield wall under all circumstances, what it does unfortunately, as described in the first part (exploits).

[Hister]

Thanx DaVinci, excellent notes! Have those throwing distances been used in any mod before? They seem a bit to short from the gamplay point of view - but historically perfect ofcourse. As far as I'm concerned Romans managed to throw 2 pillas on advancing enemy before the melee ensued so we have to have this in mind when changing distances. SigniferOne made faster javelin throwing animations which are used in PI mainly for this reason.

DaVinci, what's your oppinion on doubling the attack value for javelins and getting rid of their AP? Should attack values stay as they are?

[DaVinci]

It is applied in FRRE 58bc mod, as said above. And there, it works very good.

The attack value is of course dependent of the other values: armour and shield mainly. As i see you have 6 for a big shield mainly (ie. in 58bc we have 9 for scutum), and armour around 10 for good armoured units and also 2-3 for unarmoured units, the in PI used javelin/pila attack of around 10, if i recall properly, is more than enough to reflect its power, imo. too much, to reflect the historical (un-)accuracy in the battle chaos. And well, get rid of ap anyway.

[Hister]

Aper, here you go - this shortened your testing for sure!

[DaVinci]

and armour around 10 for good armoured units and also 2-3 for unarmoured units

... this is circa yours in PI. We have in 58bc only 1 point armour for unarmoured guys, and pretty different armour values for armoured units (while unarmoured guys have also 7 - 9 shield if carrying a scutum or other large shield, and have, along cultural capabilities, quite high defense skills, sometimes around 10, ie. "barbarians" or other skilled warriors.

So if you stay with 2-3 for unarmoured units, i would set the javelin / pila to around 6 or 7 / 8 or 9 at max, if coded along such a model, that i described above.

---

Other thing:
I would give the following codes to Roman drilled infantry (as they were already at this time):
- Hastati, disciplined and trained (and eventually slight higher morale)
- Principes, disciplined and highly_trained (and eventually slight higher morale)
- Triarii, disciplined and highly_trained (and eventually slight higher morale)

This, to make them different from the other italic warriors of that time.


---
EDIT
Ups, now i see you have all this already in that way. Strange, i thought i saw 10 for pila/javelin and ap by elites.
Now with your javelin/pila values, i would only suggest to get rid of the ap and keep the other values, and just eventually reduce the range.
Quoting myself:

the in PI used javelin/pila attack of around 10, if i recall properly, is more than enough to reflect its power, imo. too much, to reflect the historical (un-)accuracy in the battle chaos. And well, get rid of ap anyway.

Only a bit questionable: 3 for a javelin, and for arrows and stones also 3?

Perhaps either increase the simple javelin to 4 or 5 or reduce the arrow and stone to 2?
Of course a javelin has a bit more power than an arrow or a stone.