Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

[Aper]

About javs : actually, I don't want to make them more powerful, but I feel, from an historically accurate point of view, that in TW games the behaviour of metallic javelins is quite misunderstood, IMHO. I want them perform better against shields simply because historically they was designed to be effective against them. The metallic javelin, AFAIK, is an anti-shield weapon. So, I want it to be more effective against shielded but unarmored foes than against unshielded but armored ones, and the only way to do this is raise the attack of metallic javs only and remove AP.

About the risk they will be overpowered, well is all a matter of balancing the new values. A pilum "shower" should not be enough to win a battle of course, but don't underestimate this weapon. It was not a weak annoyance, whose only purpouse was to obstacolate the deployment of heavy warriors and to kill some light-protected enemies. It was a real major weapon, as important as the gladium itself : actually the heavy casualties suffered by the hellenistic phalanx of Phyrros was caused principally by this terrible weapon, that could easily penetrate the defences of the Epeirote pezhetairoi.

In the end I think metallic javs should be considered as important and effective as swords, spears and pikes, and adjusted accordingly : however it's you and the PI team who have the last word obviously, so if my thoughts does not persuade you, I will not change them. (or better, I'll do only in my personal EDU)

[Hister]

Oh sure Aper - implement it! Very good points you make - should persuade mcantu. We will see the results and comment then but I have a feeling your system will stick!

[Hister]

Good luck Aper! Men, Archeology, I should have studied that instead of Geography No problem there Aper, patch will be out after I receive finished edu.

[SigniferOne]

Good luck! Drink coffee!

[Aper]

DEGREEEEEEE!!!!!!!!! DRINK DRINK DRINK!!! DRUNK DRUNK DRUNK!!!! HAVE A DRINK WITH ME MY FRIENDS!!!!
:sparta:

[Hister]

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEY!!!! CONGRATZ APER! Hereby I drink a cup of local wine (Refosk) to your success

[Aper]

Refosk?? yea you are from slovenia, refosk is VERY good I like it a lot!!! but please have more than only a cup....

[mcantu]

hey, didnt i suggest using lower lethality values in the bata tester forum?

i strongly suggest not adding +4 to spear units. the reason EB does it is because they used to use the spear attribute so they added the +4 to attack to compensate. right before they released 1.0, they switched to light_spear but didnt change the attack value back to normal

[Hister]

Yeah, I'm from Slovenia Aper - I guess I shall drink more then

Yes mcantu, you proposed that but neither I nor Luciano had the time to change them - asper had time so he changed it

Erm, and what happens mcantu if you combine the light_spear attribute with +4 attack? I haven't spotted any negative side effects using Aper's latest EDU.

[Aper]

@ mcantu : probably you are right, I'll see if I can find another way to improve the performance of spearmen against swordmen
However, it seems obvious to me that spears should have a lower lethality than swords, so to balance the killing power of spearmen I have to raise the attack, I see no other options... or maybe I should think something totally different... :hmmm:

Working on the suggestions of Hister currently, later I'll hopefully post the new file

[mcantu]

the reason that spear units get -4 to defense skill vs swords with the light_spear attribute is that defense skill is a parrying bonus. if you think about it, parrying with a spear would be more difficult than with a sword...

[Aper]

the reason that spear units get -4 to defense skill vs swords with the light_spear attribute is that defense skill is a parrying bonus. if you think about it, parrying with a spear would be more difficult than with a sword...

Yes I know, but I think we should consider the "defense" attribute more a dodging bonus than a parrying bonus : IMHO it makes little sense to damaging your weapon parrying when you have a nice big shield, like most of warriors in PI era had, more suited to the task. And certainly no spearman in history tried to block a sword blow with his weapon! So I don't understand the reasoning CA made introducing this malus, and IMHO it should be fixed by a proper raise of the defense of units armed with the "light_spear".

I'll make some tests lowering the attack and applying the +4 defense fix and the shield-bonus suggested by Hister to Hoplites, and trying a fight with Ensiferi Messapii, and I'll report the results.

[mcantu]

well it makes sense since defense skill only applies to the front and front/right, while the shield bonus applies to the front and front/left

[Aper]

I'm not speaking strictly about game mechanics, but about logic and realism, that are more important IMO. The purpouse of game mechanics is to portrait reality on the screen, right?

However not only parrying, but even dodging is possible/useful only against blows from the front/right (because the left is covered by the shield it's useless avoid attacks on that side) : this distinction is important because if we consider "defense" more a dodging that a parrying bonus we can make it less dependent on weapons and more on encumbrance and training that is much more realistic IMO.

Reflect on this : why all ancient weapons have little or no guard? Warriors defended themselves with shields and armors, not parrying, usually.

[mcantu]

not a lot of room in a formation for a hoplite or phalangite to dodge though...

and not having large guards on swords was due to them not being invented yet, not necessarily lack of need

[Aper]

not a lot of room in a formation for a hoplite or phalangite to dodge

Good point. Hoplitai and phalangitai will not receive the +4 to defence fix.

Mmmm, about the weapon's guard I disagree, I can't see how if you have a small guard you can't think to enlarge it if you need so. It's not something like stirrups, that you have to invent from nothing, guards already exists, simply they were small because seldom useful, IMO.

However, because of the malus to defence hoplitai are again inferior to ensiferi currently : we need an alternative solution.
My idea is simple, but I need your opinion about this : giving hoplitai a little more men. This should help them in avoiding being slowly outflanked during the melee, that is the primary cause for their defeat.

EDIT : how about a + 0.05 lethality to polearms, because of the leverage? Since the only polearm in PI is the spear this should help spearmen a bit

[Hister]

Aper, I am drunk now - hehhe, my friend had a birthday and I haven't forgot about you: Californian black wine, refosk, wiskey, Lasko beer, ... , all for his 30. birthday and your graduation! Hik, hik

You two are making good discussion on the EDU matter. Let's see what you will come out with...

[Aper]

Aper, I am drunk now - hehhe, my friend had a birthday and I haven't forgot about you: Californian black wine, refosk, wiskey, Lasko beer, ... , all for his 30. birthday and your graduation! Hik, hik

Ah ah great Hister!!! I'll join you with a cup of cabernet right now!!!
But if you are at a party don't overlook the girls because you are drinking!!!

[Aper]

Tests results

List of changes : Hoplitai Krotoniai have no more the +4 to attack or the +4 to defence, but gain a +0.05 leth due to the long leverage of their weapon, +25% to their numbers (now 50) and the -1 to defence, +2 to shield suggested by Hister.
Ensiferi Messapii obtain the new pilum, with attack doubled and no AP.

The balance is fine : as it should be, the Hoplitai will win only if they avoid being outflanked and mantain a cohesive formation staying idle in "guard" mode. If these conditions are not met, they will be routed quickly.

[Hister]

Heh Aper - I have a beautiful girlfriend which I love so no need for me to watch girls on the party - I can devote all my time to drinking

I'll ask you two guys again what happens when you combine the light_spear attribute with +4 attack? I haven't spotted anything disturbing and so far battles are perfectly balanced. Why would we need to do additional changes if current system is working fine? Am I missing something?

Aper, I suppose AI controlled hoplites will be routed easily after your changes 'cos they use hoplites in an "unsmart" way! Have this in mind when you'll be balancing the edu. I'll try your suggestions though and see how this feels in the battle.