Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

**Aper** · October 02, 2008, 12:30 PM

Tried with Hoplitai Krotoniai vs. ensiferii messapii. My hoplitai have normal 40 men and 6 defense, upgraded 11 attack, 8 shield, 1.25 mass, 0.25 soldier's radius.

First observation : it's difficult to break the lines of hoplitai, so it's better to deploy them in rather thin formation, to avoid the danger of being flanked : 4 men deep should be good.

Second : engaging elite swordsmen in melee with shield-wall and guard mode off is a dangerous affair, I had mixed results, sometimes won sometimes lose, it's better to attack when you have the qualitative or numerical advantage.

Third : I had the best results doing ... nothing! Just put guard mode on, and if you don't risk to be outflanked even shieldwall, and wait your enemy to attack you ... and die against your unbreakable wall of shields and spears.

Here is the file with the adjusted chariots

EDIT : old file removed

**Hister** · October 02, 2008, 12:59 PM

First thank you very much for doing such a good balancing job Aper!

Yes you are right - I played some more battles and noticed that results vary. I'm not 100% sure but I think giving the hoplites units shieldwall and guard mode together makes them perform worse. As soon as I disabled guard mode for them they made more casualties to the enemy ensiferi. Might be something you should look into...

I've played some autocalc battles and so far they seem very well balanced! Much more time will be needed to be spend on testing to tell for sure though!

This is important : in the vanilla PI EDU (that I have no more

) how performed hoplites?? better than in my modified files??

I think ensiferi also won over hoplites in 0.72 PI edu.

According to The complete edu guide:

light_spear: Gives default bonus of +8 to defense vs cavalry, and penalty of -4 to defense vs. infantry. Offers less pushing power than spear.

So as you can see light_spear also gives -4 to hoplites against ensiferi according to edu guide. Don't know why you state that light_spear doesn't get that negative bonus??

Currently our spears have these attack values:

- short spear: 5, 4
- punic spear: 6, 4
- hoplite spear: 7, 4
- pike: 9, 4

Maybe they would need to be higher per one or two points to counter ensiferi better?

These are the current values for our javelins, slings and arrows:

ranged fire weapons (type, attack value, charge value)
- reinforced pilum: 8, 4, range 35, amount 2 + ap attribute
- Celtic gaesum: 7, 4, range 35, amount 2 + ap attribute
- throwing spear: 7, 4, range 35, amount 2 + ap attribute
- socketed pilum: 6, 4, range 40, amount 2 + ap attribute
- Oscan saunion: 6, 4, range 40, amount 2
- medium javelins: 4, 3, range 45, amount 3
- light javelins: 3, 2, range 50, amount 6
- sling: 4,1, range 90, amount 40 (Balearic slingers: 5,1, range 90, amount 40; Rhodian slingers: 6,1, range 90, amount 40)
- bow: 3,2, range 120, amount 30 (Sardinian archers: 4,2, range 120, amount 30; Cretan archers: 5,2, range 120, amount 30)

I'm interested to see what values you would propose for them since you also wanted to change them..., if you still want to ofcourse!

P.S. I made a nice progress on adding new features to the mod like cultural differences...

P.S.2. Here is edu from 0.72 version of the mod (to help you with the testing in case you need it):
http://files.filefront.com/export+de.../fileinfo.html

**Aper** · October 02, 2008, 01:27 PM

About guard mode and shieldwall, it's important that you DON'T attack when you use them, because they make units perform worse in offensive combat.
But if your men just stay idle, and attack automatically only the enemies that come in their weapons' range, your foes soon will be exhausted , when your men will be still fresh, and the kill ratio will change greatly in your advantage. Just be sure the enemy don't outflank you, and you'll probably win.

About "light_spear" I know the statements of the EDU guide, and I raised accordingly the "defense" stat of spearmen to nullify the -4 (look at the EDU and you'll see this).
But from tests, the problem don't seem to be the defense, but the attack! Those Ensiferii mother

a just don't DIE!

So I thought at the words of Marcus Aurelius Antoninus, and I suspected that the EDU guide might be incorrect, and that the malus maybe is actually a -4 to ATTACK.

I made the tests I've already posted about, and the situation seems to be more balanced, however if you want to try the new hoplites I have finished a new EDU (the changes are listed in my previous post, and of course the latest chariot fix is included)

EDIT : about javelins, I don't like the traditional way to portrait pilum-like weapons (adding the AP attribute), because this make them more effective against armored enemies than against unarmored ones : but historically the purpose of the metallic javelin was to penetrate the shield, and hit the unprotected flesh behind it, not to pierce armor! It's the contrary, the armor is the only valid defence against them! Since the AP attribute don't affect shields, it makes AP javelins perform in an unrealistic way, and so it should be discarded IMHO, and replaced simply by a raise of the attack value. If you agree I'll change AP javs accordingly, I'm waiting for your opinion

About slings well, the debate is open... According to http://www.slinging.org/ and the EB team they should be more effective and have a longer range than bows, particularly western ones, but the bows have the advantage that they can be used in quite tight formations, when the sling need a lot of space, and the bowmen have actually more ammunition than the slinger... In war slingers usually used common stones only in emergency situation, normally they carried their projectiles, that could be simple river-stones, or made of pottery or metal, and obvioulsy similar ammos take more space in a bag than an arrow...

EDIT : old file removed

**Hister** · October 02, 2008, 02:37 PM

Okey, I've tried your new edu (it has a slight bug - check hoplites peuceti - a line messed up) and the results are now much different. I just left hoplites stand there with guard mode and shield wall and they won over ensiferi with 50% more casulties on ensiferi side then on hoplite side. This might be a bit to much though!?? Can you also make a test of giving +3 instead of +4 attack value to the hoplites and see how this plays out following my test method?

P.S. I consider hoplites to be balanced if they give 30% more casualties to ensiferi before they broke off.

**Aper** · October 02, 2008, 02:54 PM

Edited the attachment, now the EDU should be fine.

About Hoplites, well, don't know if lower the attack or not, because 4 it's exactly the value of the supposed malus and so they should nullify each other (for example, all spearmen in EB have this bonus)... maybe I can discard the +2 bonus to the shield, even if I like the idea of hoplites having a bonus in it due to their particular style of fighting...
What do you think is better to change?

**Hister** · October 02, 2008, 03:06 PM

Okey, regarding your last edit topic:

I didn't know armor was able to defend against heavy javelins (lighter yes but heavier javelins?). Well if you think it will better simulate their use then yeah sure - implement it!

Regarding the slings - change them to accordingly but do not overpower them since we don't want to have slingers ruining the gameplay experience due to hard historical fact - but I know you will make it wright and balanced

Since I see you are the proper men for the task I have few more suggestions for making this edu perfect (let me know what do you think of them and make sure you don't change all the values and make tests when you are done - safer to change 2 units values and then test them in custom battle then to make all this work and then see it doesn't work as it is supposed to):

Suggestion No. 1:
Lower the weapon defense points for all units that have high shield values (scutum, hoplon, Samnite shield, maybe Celting long shield to?) by (-1). Opposite (+1) applies to other smaller shields then.

My suggestion regarding which shields get + 1, which +0 and which -1 base weapon defense value :

+1 to the weapon defense value:
buckler
wooden pelta
bronze pelta

+0 to the weapon defense value:
parma
clipeus/light hoplon
thureos/Celtic long shield

-1 to the weapon defense value:
Samnite shield
aspis/hoplon
scutum

Suggestion No. 2:
Add +1 value to the shield values that are carried by closely packed/drilled units such as Roman units.

Add +2 value to the shield values that are carried by hoplites due to their extremely close packed formation.

The explanation of the above suggestions:
Higher shield values should be accompanied somewhat by some reduction in defense value because having bigger and better shield meant less parrying with the weapon.
Shield value represent actual tactical use of the shield --> hoplite units for example receive a +2 shield bonus to simulate their close formation, mutual shield cover, ability to thrust with the spear from behind the shield etc. However, they also receive defense penalties (-1 to the weapon defense value). What this means is that from the front arc they are well protected (ie high shield value + lower weapon defense value) but from the side (half shield + low defense) they are much more vulnerable, and when their formation starts to fragment they are in trouble.

Suggestion No. 3:
Add +1 charge value to the weapons of all the units that carry scutum shields due to scutum's ramming ability (breaking foe's legs etc.).
Scutum has bonus because they often used edges of scutum as a ram to broke enemy legs or shields...

Suggestion No. 4:
Edit: deleted - was referring to M2TW PI!

Current PI edu shield values for easier reference:

shield protection
- buckler +1
- wooden pelta +2
- bronze pelta +3
- parma +3
- clipeus/light hoplon +4
- thureos/Celtic long shield +4/+5
- Samnite shield +5
- aspis/hoplon +6
- scutum +7

edit: I mistakenly put some + values next to the shields - don't mind them - I deleted them now...
edit 2: Suggestion No. 4: was delited 'cos it was referring to M2TW PI!

**Aper** · October 02, 2008, 03:30 PM

Thanx very interesting suggestions!
I'll try to keep the slings balanced don't worry, in EB they are like machine-guns and I don't like it at all...
About javelins, well, they still will be effective to armors thanks to the higher attack (even if maybe not as they are now with AP), but more important they'll be able to overcome most shields as in reality : people who have an armor behind the shield will probably save their skin due to the combined effect of the 2 types of defence, but a naked Celtic macho will infortunately gain another beautiful pilum-shaped ornament just below his torques..:sparta:Sorry I need sleep

About hoplites, honestly I think balance is fine, don't forget that a single little error in their deployment can allow the enemy to outflank them and bye, they're gone to dine in hell.. the same if for whatever cause the formation is broken, in wild melee they are still quite weak ... as they historically were

**Hister** · October 02, 2008, 03:43 PM

Excellent Aper! Go to sleep - you deserve it! Yeah, most probably you are wright about hoplites being balanced now.
See you tomorrow then. Many thanx! I would +rep you again if I could

**Hister** · October 02, 2008, 04:09 PM

One more thing - aren't we supposed to also make attack values of all other spear units like lanceari higher by 4?

**Aper** · October 03, 2008, 03:38 AM

Yes of course but yesterday I hadn't time

I'll see what I can do later, RL begins to be jealous....

**Hister** · October 03, 2008, 05:23 AM

Yeah tell me about it! Well I really hope you can finish the edu! If not then I know what I have to do to make it finish if you can't do the job.

It's higher javelin values: did you think values for all javelin types should be doubled (with AP removed)?

Slings need to be revised.

Then +4 attack to all spear units (hoplites done already).

And then if we have time also some of my ideas for extra candy (but not necessary though).

Greek hoplites could have a little bit diversified values since they now all share the same values.

And whuala - EDU will be finished.

**Aper** · October 03, 2008, 12:48 PM

Damn seems that RL won this round

I'm quite busy right now I hope to finish the work in the next days...
Sorry mate!

EDIT : well, i managed to finish to add the +4 bonus to attack (and remove the +4 bonus to defense) to all "light_spear" units. About your suggestions, I'll add them in the next days

P.S. Can you test the new spearmen for me? I fear they can be too strong now... thanx!

EDIT : old file removed

**Hister** · October 03, 2008, 03:08 PM

Thanx Aper, mate

Will try and see if they are overpowered.

**Hister** · October 03, 2008, 03:49 PM

Aper, they are not overpowered! Everything is very very well balanced thanx to you. It can already be included in next patch but I hope you find some time and adjust javelins and slings accordingly.

All in all superb work mate!

P.S. Will use your ideas in M2TW PI's EDU!

**Hister** · October 03, 2008, 03:59 PM

Ah yes, my suggestion number 2 about adding additional shield values to closely packed units should be left out since as it seems units are very well balanced (suggestion is in post 66 in this thread). Others shall be implemented for extra candy

But the most important at the moment is adjustment of javelins and slings!

**Aper** · October 04, 2008, 05:44 AM

:hmmm:But I have already applied the +2 bonus to hoplon in the EDU you tried!

I've forgotten to add it to Hoplites Peucetii, fixed in this file.

If that worked well, why not extend the principle to other shields, like you suggested in that nice 66 post?

Another thing : that little chainmail stat change (suggestion 4) maked sense, why cannot we implement it in this BI version too?

By the way, I'll look into ranged weapons balance first, then we'll discuss about shields&armors

EDIT : old file removed

**Hister** · October 04, 2008, 06:30 AM

Oh really - I didn't know/spotted that you've added already +2 to hoplite shields cos' I only took a look at Hoplites Peuceti

So yes, if you want you can apply that to other shields to, sure! Am happy to see that my theory works well. Okey, go ahead with suggestion 4 to. I deleted it 'cos values in it were for old M2TW PI edu stats but sure - it can be implemented in BI to.

Can't wait to see what you will bring us next!

Btw, this is what mcantu said:

i dont think you need to go higher with the javelins. IMO, they are borderline high now.

Any thoughts?

**Aper** · October 04, 2008, 12:42 PM

About javs : actually, I don't want to make them more powerful, but I feel, from an historically accurate point of view, that in TW games the behaviour of metallic javelins is quite misunderstood, IMHO. I want them perform better against shields simply because historically they was designed to be effective against them. The metallic javelin, AFAIK, is an anti-shield weapon. So, I want it to be more effective against shielded but unarmored foes than against unshielded but armored ones, and the only way to do this is raise the attack of metallic javs only and remove AP.

About the risk they will be overpowered, well is all a matter of balancing the new values. A pilum "shower" should not be enough to win a battle of course, but don't underestimate this weapon. It was not a weak annoyance, whose only purpouse was to obstacolate the deployment of heavy warriors and to kill some light-protected enemies. It was a real major weapon, as important as the gladium itself : actually the heavy casualties suffered by the hellenistic phalanx of Phyrros was caused principally by this terrible weapon, that could easily penetrate the defences of the Epeirote pezhetairoi.

In the end I think metallic javs should be considered as important and effective as swords, spears and pikes, and adjusted accordingly : however it's you and the PI team who have the last word obviously, so if my thoughts does not persuade you, I will not change them.

(or better, I'll do only in my personal EDU

)

**Hister** · October 04, 2008, 06:22 PM

Oh sure Aper - implement it! Very good points you make - should persuade mcantu. We will see the results and comment then but I have a feeling your system will stick!