Paeninsula Italic Suggestions and Comments

[Benz282]

Well, with RS, they seem to have made their city-hops have anywhere between 2-8 times the mass of all other units (that's including super-heavy cavalry). Adding .1-.3 on to the mass of elite hoplites would give them a bit of an edge in combat, but without making them unstoppable 300-like Spartans.

[Visitor13]

I don't have access to the mod right now, so I can't be more specific, but I've noticed that at the start Roman towns can be divided into three categories unit-wise: those with the full Roman roster, those with an allied roster (the Hernici, the Campani etc.) and those with a roster of Italic archers/skirmishers and the Hastati/Principes/Triarii triad. I don't quite understand why the Hastati/Principes/Triarii are recruitable in those towns and the Accensi/Rorarii/Leves aren't. Aren't these towns still relatively newly-conquered during an earlier phase of Roman expansion, taken from tribes like the non-Roman Latins, the Volsci etc.? Wouldn't the poorer part of the conquered folk (Accensi/Rorarii/Leves) get drafted into the Roman army earlier and easier than the more elite warriors, or at least simultaneously with them? Or are these recruitable Hastati/Principes/Triarii basically a local Roman garrison occupying these territories? Or maybe they are the local tribal warriors, who by this time are indistinguishable from the Romans proper in terms of armour and equipment? But if this is the case, didn't they use units like the Accensi, the Rorarii or the Leves?

I hope my question is clear enough...

[Leonidas480bc]

Nice post, I too would like a more in depth synopsis of each city and why they fielded the troops they did. I am currently playing the ITALIOTAE, and they were known to hire a lot of mercenaries hence i can recruit them. I am not very well versed in Roman history or even Italica history to answer your question. I suggest that you do some research and present the finding to the team if you find anything that is a miss. lets all remember that they are working on not one mod but 2.

[Rorarii]

I don't have access to the mod right now, so I can't be more specific, but I've noticed that at the start Roman towns can be divided into three categories unit-wise: those with the full Roman roster, those with an allied roster (the Hernici, the Campani etc.) and those with a roster of Italic archers/skirmishers and the Hastati/Principes/Triarii triad. I don't quite understand why the Hastati/Principes/Triarii are recruitable in those towns and the Accensi/Rorarii/Leves aren't. Aren't these towns still relatively newly-conquered during an earlier phase of Roman expansion, taken from tribes like the non-Roman Latins, the Volsci etc.? Wouldn't the poorer part of the conquered folk (Accensi/Rorarii/Leves) get drafted into the Roman army earlier and easier than the more elite warriors, or at least simultaneously with them? Or are these recruitable Hastati/Principes/Triarii basically a local Roman garrison occupying these territories? Or maybe they are the local tribal warriors, who by this time are indistinguishable from the Romans proper in terms of armour and equipment? But if this is the case, didn't they use units like the Accensi, the Rorarii or the Leves?

I hope my question is clear enough...

Visitor, it depends if these towns were given roman citizenship? from memory only some latin/hill tribal towns were given citizenship. If a town was given citizenship then their nobles would probably be obligated to fill the role as eques, other citizens trained as allied(?) legionaries. The poor??? I'm not sure. Rome only called upon it's poor in desperate situations, when rome lost it's latin allies.

I'm sure Luciano could answer far better though.

R

[Visitor13]

Visitor, it depends if these towns were given roman citizenship? from memory only some latin/hill tribal towns were given citizenship. If a town was given citizenship then their nobles would probably be obligated to fill the role as eques, other citizens trained as allied(?) legionaries. The poor??? I'm not sure. Rome only called upon it's poor in desperate situations, when rome lost it's latin allies.

I'm sure Luciano could answer far better though.

R

Thanks Rorarii, I guess this answers my question, for all intents and purposes. I actually should have thought of the answer myself, it's kinda obvious, but I tend to miss the obvious things. And yeah, the poor were auxiliary skirmishers almost exclusively.

And hey, just noticed your mod, best of luck with it! You've got yourself a future player for sure!

[Hister]

Well, regarding TW games actually I'm totally dedicated to EB, so my impressions comes from the comparison with that great mod... I remember of one thread about a feature like "base farming level of a province", that should be exactly what you need to mod both to reduce both income and pop growth.... sorry my only modding experience is messing EDU stats, so I doubt I can help you about the economic model, but I can search something, maybe in The Guild EB forum... if you think it can be of help!

Aper, HouseofHam gave me very interesting info on the matter of where/how to globally cut the income. Thanx for the EB tip - I don't have time right now to browse all their threads so if you find anything of use please give us a link.


Regarding colision mass of the hoplites, yeah they should have more. In M2TW's PI I gave such masses to units:
0.7 archers; 0.8 levy, 1 lighter units, 1.2 average units, 1.5 heavy units (hoplites), 1.8 phalanx.
Might come in handy when you guys decide what masses you will give them...

[Stalins_Elite]

Thanks Rorarii, I guess this answers my question, for all intents and purposes. I actually should have thought of the answer myself, it's kinda obvious, but I tend to miss the obvious things. And yeah, the poor were auxiliary skirmishers almost exclusively.

And hey, just noticed your mod, best of luck with it! You've got yourself a future player for sure!

The thing to remember is that the Roman Legions were made up of people with Roman citizen ship. But for every ethnic Roman Legion, there was 2 - 3 Auxilary legions made up of Roman allied states that had been subdued in previous wars. So for example. Were it says that say 8 Roman legions were present in a battle, it is most likey that infact 24-32 legions were present. At the height of the Republics power, IIRC they had some 60-90 Roman and Auxilary legions. If you do the math, that's some 300'000 - 450'000 troops as a standing army, quite impressive for an ancient kingdom. So back to the topic. If anything, the Campanian and local ethnic troops should be seen more heavily in the Roman armies then the acctual Roman Hastati, Princepe's and Triarii. My 2 cents anyways. SE.

[SigniferOne]

SE, it's not accurate to say that when ancient histories claim the presence of 8 Roman legions, in fact 24-32 are present. First of all, 300-450,000 troops would be impossible except for only the largest and biggest of empires. Roman Empire at its 1st century AD height fielded about 250,000 troops. Polybius says that the military-age population in Italy was 800,000 men. So your extrapolation of what the ancient sources "really" mean isn't very accurate. Besides, whenever auxilia legions are present, Livy will write something like: "we had 6 Roman legions, 2 legions from Campania and 3 legions from Sabine territories".

[Spartan198]

Have you guys considered putting in an event card announcing Alexander the Great's death in 323?

[Hister]

Have you guys considered putting in an event card announcing Alexander the Great's death in 323?

Nope we haven't but it would be a nice addition - who will make it then?


Does anyone has time to put the below values in edu to make auto-calculated battles more balanced?

The second value of stat_health can be used to improve the balance of auto-resolve. Certain units like chariots are currently overpowered in it, while other like mounted and missile units are underpowered. Here follow some rough suggestions on how to assign sec hp values in order to balance auto-resolve more evenly:

* Animal units stay as they are.
* All other units get 5 sec hps.
* Units with 2 or more prim hps get -1 sec hp for each extra prim one.
* Missile units with low-medium missile attack get +1 sec hp.
* Missile units with medium-high missile attack get +2 sec hps.
* Mounted units with low-medium charge get +1 sec hp.
* Mounted units with medium-high charge get +2 sec hps.

[HouseOfHam]

Nope we haven't but it would be a nice addition - who will make it then?

If someone wants to write up a nice text message with some background information about the event, I can code it in (and clear out of all the old BI historical events while I'm at it).

[Benz282]

Does anyone has time to put the below values in edu to make auto-calculated battles more balanced?

I'll do it. I assume the last EDU file is the one you want me to edit, correct? (if not, send me the latest version and I'll get right on it)

[Hister]

HouseOfHam and Benz, you guys are great!

Benz - yes, edit the last edu version since there is not any newer one.

HouseOfHam - super, we only need to find someone to write that. Since I'll go to my parents home today I will have nothing else to do regaarding the coding so I can write a short Alexander's text.

[HouseOfHam]

Removed all BI historical events and added a new one for Alexander the Great's death.

Changes won't be visible in old saved games, but you can still play them after putting this change in.

[Hister]

Excellent HouseOfHam! Thankyou!

[Hister]

Any other ideas for specific events? I suppose in the first turn player should get a brief explanation of what was going on at that time in the are our mod covers as suggested by our fans. Thanx to HouseOfHam I now know how to code that

[Aper]

I've noticed that all weapons have the same lethality value (0.25) is this still a WIP feature?
I think should be better a RC inspired system, based on both the weapon type and the soldier' status and training ... If you are interested I've made a very simple example of how it could work :

Damage types :
Blunt + 0.05
Cut + 0.05
Pierce + 0.05
Stiles of fighting :
2H + 0.05
Mounted + 0.05

Warrior' status :
Peasant + 0.0
Militia + 0.05
Average + 0.1
Quality + 0.15
Elite + 0.2
Heroic + 0.25

The Damage types and Stiles of fighting are cumulative. Why? Well I don't like when people assume that a mace is less lethal than a sword just because is a weapon more simple and bruthal, is quite arbitrary to me. But the sword actually gives you more ways to kill, you can cut, stab or, using a longsword, even the sheer momentum can be enough. A mace gives you only the latter option. So, determining the lethality of a longsword, in my mini-system you have to add cut+pierce+blunt=1.5 base, when the mace has only blunt=0.5 base.
Notice that a even superhero unit can reach a maximum lethality of 0.5, because, as Machiavelli said, the probability of success (in anything) rely half on your skill, and half on ... luck!

[Luciano B]

Removed all BI historical events and added a new one for Alexander the Great's death.

Changes won't be visible in old saved games, but you can still play them after putting this change in.

Thanks a lot, House

[Aper]

No discussion about lethality? In M2TW has been removed, but in RTW is very important to add realism and represent the different effects of the weapons.

Another suggestion : get rid of the AP attribute for the Pilum, and raise its attack value. The Pilum, AFAWK, was designed to pierce shields, not armors, and the AP attribute don't affect shield defense, so it's unrealistic.

Hope for a new beta soon ...

[Hister]

Sorry Aper noone answered you! Luciano is away and I forgot to answer that thread since I'm so busy adding new features to the mod. Yeah your point is correct - mcantu and I told Luciano that he should do something on the matter but Luciano has a very busy real life and thought such a thing is not yet needed for the beta. To tell you the truth I at the moment also don't have the will to do that since I'm already majorly involved in different mod's aspects. But if anyone is interested the job for the task is open and I will be happy to invite anyone interested to help - including you if you so wish.