Siam: Total War

[Pazu the Kitsune]

Thisll be the thread where we can discuss Siam: Total War. Ill get into more detail with the history of Annam, then me and Hungvan can start deciding on what the units for each of the factions within Annam should be
Shopperkimpy will be in charge of the history for Siam....
For now i propose that we stick to the history of each of the factions, then from there decide upon what units each of the factions should have.
As ETW doesnt come out until February 09, well have plenty of time to decide upon these things. When ETW does come out, the modders will come into play. Until then the modders should help out with the history.
-Pazu the Kitsune

(PS: When i say modders, i mean you, Yamoto)

[Yamoto]

Which timeline does campaign span?

[Pazu the Kitsune]

Ideally the same as ETW....1700-1830....although we can extend it in either direction if itd make it easier

[Pazu the Kitsune]

Ok heres the revised history of Annam from 1700-1830...
By 1700 there was 3 real factions in Annam, The Trinh in the north, The Nguyen in the south, and the Champa in the far south.
The Champa had no real military at this time, as they had been defeated by the Nguyen and were a subservient kingdom, only given autonomy because of their surrender. So the Trinh wouldve been neutral with everyone, including the Nguyen, as a long and bloody war had just ended between them, the Champa wouldve been a subservient kingdom to the Nguyen, and the Nguyen wouldve been at war with the Khmer Kingdom, as they were trying to get the land in the Lower Mekong Delta.
This is pretty much how it looked until 1771 when the Tay Son Revolution broke out. The Tay Son Revolutionaries would be an emmergent faction who appear in the Nguyen lands in the south. The Tay Son eventually take all of Annam, which is when 2 splinter factions will emerge, the Nhac dynasty (led by Nguyen Nhac) which appears in the Center, and the Anh Dynasty (led by Nguyen Anh) in the South. The remaining Tay Son Revolutionaries in the North became known as the Hue dynasty (led by Nguyen Hue or Emporer Quang Trung).
The Anh dynasty pretty much has the same political stances as the Nguyen before it, it wouldve been at war with the Khmer Kingdom, and it wouldve had the Champa as a subserviant Kingdom. The Nhac dynasty wouldve been neutral with everyone, and the Hue dynasty wouldve been declared war upon by the Qing Chinese in the North, as this is wat happened historically.
In 1792 Emporer Quang Trung dies for unknown reasons. This is when war breaks out between the Nhac, the Anh and the Hue (now led by Quang Trungs successor). Of these three factions, the Anh have the strongest military, which is why they won the war, first subduing the Nhac dynasty and then subduing the internally divided Hue dynasty.
After his victory, Nguyen Anh declared himself Emporer Gia Long. At this time Annam was effectively unified and became known as the Nguyen Dynasty. Also at this time is when we first see the use of the word 'Vietnam' to describe the region by people outside the region (it had been called Vietnam by people inside the region for some time).
The Nguyen dynasty wouldve probably been at war with the Khmer Kingdom, the Qing Chinese in the north (although the Chinese werent actively trying to conquer them at this point), and a little later on at war with the Champa.
Gia Longs successor, Ming Mang, finished taking the Lower Mekong Delta from the Khmer Kingdom, and he annexed the remaining Champa land as well, the Champas then disappearing from history (as a political entity anyway).
The French historically didnt invade Annam until the 1850s, although if u choose to play as the French u could ideally step in and start conquering any time.
(phew)
-Pazu the Kitsune

[Pazu the Kitsune]

The map will only span SE asia.....
Thisll allow us to get alot more in depth with the different factions and regions there.

-Pazu the Kitsune

[Pazu the Kitsune]

Ok heres wat i know about the Cham people (poeple in the region of Champa) so far....
Unlike the rest of Annam, they were Hindu. Also, they were descended from the Malay peoples (polynesians). If they have armed forces, theyll probably consist of mostly spearmen and javelins, although they may have some archers in there. As far as im concerned they never had the opportunity to get their hands on or use firearms. Since we dont have any accurate data on them, we may have to improvise.

Some possible units for the Champa:
Melee:
Cham Peasants (strong peasants, equivalent to say the Aztec peasants)
Cham Clubbers (men armed with large clubs)
Cham Warband (spearmen)
Cham Spearmen (spearmen)
Chief's guards (elite spearmen)

Missile:
(all missile units will have a small club for melee)
Cham Slingers (slingers)
Cham Archers (archers)
Cham javelins (javelins)
Elephant hunters (elite javelins)

Cavalry:
none

Artillery:
none

Other:
Shamans (motivational unit)

[Yamoto]

Are we just going to ad Southeast Asia or will the map only span Southeast Asia.

[Yamoto]

Could you please tell me something about the Khmer Empire at the time, because I'm very curious about them.

And those Chinese did they look like those cool dudes from Red Cliff?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rbx9oPfFNFs

[Pazu the Kitsune]

I dont really know much of anything about the Khmer, other than that at the time ETW takes place (1700-1830), the Cambodians were in their 'Dark Age', and really didnt stand much of a chance militarily against Vietnam or Siam. In battle however,they were known for their brutality. I imagine their armies wouldve looked similar to the Vietnamese armies of the same period, although possibly more barbaric.

As for the Chinese, I imagine they may have looked like the guys in that trailer (the trailer was roXXor btw ) but they probably wouldve used muskets, pikes, swords and possibly even crossbows still, but not bows n arrows :\

[Shopperkimpy]

Siam flag around 1813



Kingdom of Siam 1809

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Cannon

Burmese army [from suriyothai flim]
http://desktop.kratookfilm.com/album...s/10001/19.jpg
wallpaper http://desktop.kratookfilm.com/displ...album=2&pos=18

Praya Phichai Dap Hak Memorial
The Praya Phichai Dap Hak Memorial is installed in front of the townhall erected in honour of a hero. As governor of Muang Phichai (south of Uttaradit) about 200 years ago during the Thon Buri Period, the valiantly fought with Burmese evaders until one of his swords broke in two. But he prevailed over them. Hence the sobriquet Phichai of the Broken Sword.

Queen Suriyothai (also known as Somdet Phra Suriyothai, was a legendary queen during the 16th century Ayutthaya period of Siam (now Thailand). She is famous for having given her life in defense of her king.
During the battle with Burmese troops, King Maha Chakapat's elephant collapsed from wounds and he was in danger of being killed. Queen Suriyothai rode her elephant to protect her husband and was killed by a scythe.

Taksin the Great was born in April 17, 1734 in the reign of Borommakot. He has been recognized as one of the great Thai kings, for his prowess in warfare, his leadership in liberating the country after Ayutthaya was taken by the Burmese in 1767, and his ability in unifying the country after it had been split up into many factions.

[Pazu the Kitsune]

wow, awesome pix shopper

About firearms: To start off in the campaign, the French, the English, and the Chinese will have firearms. As for the Siamese, i dont know (Shopper, did the Siamese armies have firearms circa 1700?)

The 8 Vietnamese factions (Nguyen, Trinh, Champa, Tay Son Revolutionaries, Anh Hue and Nhac dynasties, Nguyen dynasty), Khmer Empire, Burma, and Laos at that time (Federation of Lan Xuan?) are different. They do not start off with firearms. However, if they are good diplomatically then they have a chance of obtaining firearms from one of the imperial factions. This is relying on a verified rumor that Empire Total War will include a diplomacy option for more primitive factions of obtaining new weapons from larger imperial european factions (similar to unlocking new units with the Apache in Kingdoms, excpet u dont even have to kill enemy units to get them )

Here is a list of historically accurate diplomatic situations where factions w/o firearms could potentially get their hands on them:

• The French were genuinely uninterested in the Nguyen and the Trinh
• The French supported the Tay Son revolution, but later went against the Nguyen Dynasty
• The English would be willing to help anyone who opposed French invasion
• The Qing Chinese supported the Khmer Empire
• The Malaysian pirates would be willing to help out anyone who would pay enough gold

[Shopperkimpy]

Cannons
First invented in Europe in 1375, the cannon was imported into Ayutthaya when King Ramesuan surrounded Chiengmai in 1429. At that time, cannons fire did a lot of damage to the city wall.

Small guns
Popular guns at the time were flintlock guns and pistols. The difference lies in the mechanism of the guns

There were two important issues in these wars. First was the role of fire-arms and second was the need for access to the Andaman Sea for trade and access across the Southern Peninsula. Chinese cannons were used in the 15th C but warfare changed decisively when the Portuguese sold arms in bulk from 1510.
In addition Portuguese mercenaries were employed to fight. For example in 1563, 400 Portuguese mercenaries mounted cannons on platforms to fire over the city defence walls of Ayutthaya to kill its citizens.
Different victories by either side were largely the result of the acquisition of the latest military equipment and the support of foreign mercenaries. Traditionally the balance of power in war depended on elephants and large armies but the introduction of cannons and small arms changed the nature of war and the mobility to fight anywhere.
The southern centres had access to the sea and trade for guns. So by the mid 16th C the supply of arms precipitates a wave of fighting. The Burmese strategy of using elevated cannons to subdue the population within the city walls became standard practice.

I have many source but i can't translate them into english

rough in

in ayutthaya period thai used small arms before portuguese came
presumption they learned from indian
in the reign of King Chairacha (Reigned 1534-1546) he hire Portuguese mercenaries and cannon
after he capture Chiengmai at this time thai learn how to make
cannon ,matchlock , gunpowder then thai used matchlock in all war
during the ayutthaya period

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- king songtham [reigning from 1611 to 1628] His reign is linked to the rise of the Japanese adventurer Yamada Nagamasa who helped him in his military campaigns with a small army of Japanese soldiers.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- King narai [1629 - July 11, 1688] have a french bodyguard number around 1400 soldiers


[French soldiers in Siam, 17th century Siamese painting.]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Bangkok

- in thonburi period thai used mix of Matchlock and Flintlock
- in the reign of Rama I (1736 - 1809) thai can build own Fintlock and buy form european

- in the reign of Rama III [1787 - 1851]thai royale guard equip with Blunderbuss when full and half ceremonial dress


[sorry for my english]

[dark_shadow89]

I imagine their armies wouldve looked similar to the Vietnamese armies of the same period, although possibly more barbaric.

Actually, the Khmer were rather like the Siamese - Indian and Malay influenced, whilst the Vietnamese were very much Chinese influenced, so if anything, the Khmers would be similar to the Siamese and the Vietnamese similar to the Chinese.

[Shopperkimpy]

many pics ...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Rattanakosin early 19 cen





Rama I





nine army war

























from cadet book

cannon

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Roger the Shrubber]

The King and I comes to mind.

[Pazu the Kitsune]

Firstly, excellent posts shopper

Secondly, Roger, i dont believe the Siamese King from The King and I is an actual historical figure, plus, this is a war game, not a romance novel by Rodgers & Hammerstein :\

Thirdly, shopper, feel free to start posting the unit names and types for the Ayutthaya Dynasty, as i did in my fourth post in this thread.

Finally, what shopper has posted leads me to conclude that the armies of Annam circa 1700 (Trinh & Nguyen) certainly would have had firearms. Even the Khmer Empire and the Champa should probably have firearms, although logically (since they were both in decline during this period) their guns should be more primitive. The Champa are going be a non-playable faction, so that is covered. The Khmer Empire will be playable, however, and if the player leads them successfully, then logically they should be able to get hold of more modern weapons.

-Pazu the Kitsune

[Shopperkimpy]

maybe look like this ..

Melee units :
Siamese Peasants
Siamese Militia
Siamese Spearman
Siamese Swordsman
Chaturongkhabat [specially trained infantrymen guarded elephant]

Missile units :
Siamese Archers
Siamese Gunner

Cavalry :
Light Cavalry
War Elephant
Elephant Cannon

Artillery :
Cannon

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Turnus]

Don't you think it would be better to set the mod in the period 1768 (coronation of Taksin) to 1868 (accession of Rama the Great) or 1909/10 (Anglo-Siamese Treaty/Death of Rama the Great)? This way you could include the British and French to a greater extent and have the map from (later British controlled) Burma to Vietnam.

[Pazu the Kitsune]

shopper, man u are just an endless fountain of excellent pictures-nice work

secondly, dark, u are right, the Khmer culture was very similar to the Siamese culture, and the Vietnamese have always tried to model their culture after the Chinese culture.

So logically, the Khmer armies would probably be like the Siamese armies, except without the elephants. They were also known to be more brutal in battle, so i do hope to portray that somehow.

Finally, turnus, i think 1700 is a good start date, as i do hope to include the Ayutthuya dynasty, as well as the Trinh and Nguyen in Annam.....its not like we'll have too many factions, and also the succession will come to mark the change in period and technology..........

As for ending in 1868, i think that might be a good idea, itd increase the role of the European powers, and provide a challenge to players playing as either Burma or Vietnam.

[Pazu the Kitsune]

ok heres the revised Champa unit roster:

Melee:
Cham Peasants (peasants)
Cham Swordsmen (swordsmen)
Cham Warband (spearmen)
Cham Pikemen (pikemen)
Chief's guards (elite swordsmen)

Missile:
(all missile units will have a sword for melee)
Cham Crossbows (crossbows)
Cham Gunners (men w/ arquebuis)
Cham elite gunners (men w/ musket)

Cavalry:
none

Artillery:
none