Hitler, Stalin & the Rest: "Atheist Genocide" Promoters?

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

I am tired to hear Theists, generally Christians, repeating their old vitriol that the Holocaust and the tons of crimes committed by modern authoritarian regimes, mostly Communist ones, were made in the name of "Atheism".

The difference between the Genocide committed by theists and atheists is the main essence of the business that unfortunately most don't get. St. Bartholemy's Night in XVI century France was made in the name of Catholicism. The Khmer Rouge Massacre was made in the name of Communism, not "Atheism".

Any man can be an Atheist and commit murder in the name of the Catholic Church or some nutty religious denomination. In this particular case, the blame will still go for the Theists because the atheist fellow was merely a tool of their intent and purpose. Similarly, the fact that Communism is an atheistic ideology does not mean that crimes committed under its banner were made primarily for "Atheism". "Atheism", being essentially the lack of belief and without any dogma or militant teaching apart from the principle of the non-existence of divine, ethereal or metaphysical beings, is nothing but a negative, a denial. Killing for "Atheism" would be the same as murdering for the "non-existence of dwarfs".

The primary intent beyond Stalinist and other Communist crimes was the paranoid attitude that lead to a ruthless break on all dissent, mainly from political sources. Religion was also affected because it was thought to go against Communist principle, not "Atheism". Beware because Communist views on the Universe, despite being influenced by Materialistic and Atheistic views, are not necessarily equal to "Atheism", which can often be too diverse to fall into a single, concrete definition other than the very basic denial of God and Gods. Many "atheists" can have different views from other "atheists" depending on personal choice and belief.

[basics]

Indeed, many others who have in their position of power, thought that they were gods or at least His equal no matter what it was they believed. I think I would be hard pushed to demonstrate that Communist leaders have killed as many people as has the Roman Catholic Church in it's time.

Indeed I once observed that it was the longest running dictatorship of all time and was met with howls of disapproval, even a threat or two. But can history really be denied? Would it be fair to say that most of the struggles seen on this planet today are between Muslim and Catholic in Africa and Asia, and in Latin America between that church and Protestantism and or Communism?

Indeed can it be proved that them who are athiest became such by birth and not as a result of being born into a family reliant on religious fervour such as Romanism or Orthodox, perhaps even Protestantism. That it was the zealousness of these religions to make domination more important than the original simplicity of the message, that made some what they became.

[Rich86]

As Dawkins so wonderfully put it;

"Stalin did not commit his crimes because he was an atheist, but in spite of the fact he was an atheist - you may as well argue Stalin killed tens of millions of people because he had a moustache."

[Gauvin]

"Stalin did not commit his crimes because he was an atheist, but in spite of the fact he was an atheist - you may as well argue Stalin killed tens of millions of people because he had a moustache."

There is a moustache connection when it comes to tyrants. He might be on to something.

[Aziel]

Right on, Voltaire.. uh, I mean Scipio Barbatus. I liked your former nickname better.

[Trey]

As Dawkins so wonderfully put it;

"Stalin did not commit his crimes because he was an atheist, but in spite of the fact he was an atheist - you may as well argue Stalin killed tens of millions of people because he had a moustache."

A disproportionate amount of serial killers and rapists have mustaches too. That's a fact.

[Chaigidel]

what I find so hilarious is that atheists magically are not connected in any way to the world view they hold yet each religion is held to standards based on its followers -- the whole religion judged on the independent actions of a few.

I agree totally with what you say but I find it hilarious you are unable to apply it to the religious whereas you display your clear mindless bigotry and lack of introspection on the topic.

if the catholic church is responsible for all the horrors committed in its name then so too is atheism for pol pot and stalin.

[Ciabhán]

what I find so hilarious is that atheists magically are not connected in any way to the world view they hold yet each religion is held to standards based on its followers -- the whole religion judged on the independent actions of a few.

I agree totally with what you say but I find it hilarious you are unable to apply it to the religious whereas you display your clear mindless bigotry and lack of introspection on the topic.

if the catholic church is responsible for all the horrors committed in its name then so too is atheism for pol pot and stalin.

I think the big difference is the fact that many wrongs have been done "In the name of God" or using "Deus vult" to justify them. I have yet to hear a genocidal atheist tyrant declare his actions "In the name of atheism". Atheists are just as responsible for their actions as religious folk, they just don't have a convenient flag to wave as justification for them.

People connect the actions to the religion when the religion is loudly declared as the reason for the actions.

[Pickle_mole]

what I find so hilarious is that atheists magically are not connected in any way to the world view they hold yet each religion is held to standards based on its followers -- the whole religion judged on the independent actions of a few.

I agree totally with what you say but I find it hilarious you are unable to apply it to the religious whereas you display your clear mindless bigotry and lack of introspection on the topic.

if the catholic church is responsible for all the horrors committed in its name then so too is atheism for pol pot and stalin.

Very true! widen the mental road to two lanes scipio! +rep

[Chaigidel]

yes they do have a flag its called nationalism-- to hold god and religion responsible for the actions of independent men and women is ridiculous ; I agree I just apply the rule equally to all rather than selectively to the groups of people I like.

[Ciabhán]

yes they do have a flag its called nationalism-- to hold god and religion responsible for the actions of independent men and women is ridiculous ; I agree I just apply the rule equally to all rather than selectively to the groups of people I like.

Okay so you just gave a name to it and it is not atheism. I agree that the rule should be applied equally but first you have to figure out what the banner is. If the banner is god, then religion gets hit, if it is nationalism, then nationalists take the hit. I still have yet to see someone declare atheism the reason.

[Odovacar]

Communist as atheists persecuted religions.
Atheism has as many form as you want.

You always consider bad things done by religious people (ppl who claims so) encouraged by religion. Louis The Sun King did not persecute protestants because f catholicism...it was perfectly good for him to back up protestant enemies of Habsburgs.

Just as atheism is not to blame for Stalin's action, religion is not to blame for people's actions who do what they want. If you judge with double standars you will be judged with double standards.

[Ciabhán]

Communist as atheists persecuted religions.
Atheism has as many form as you want.

You always consider bad things done by religious people (ppl who claims so) encouraged by religion. Louis The Sun King did not persecute protestants because f catholicism...it was perfectly good for him to back up protestant enemies of Habsburgs.

Just as atheism is not to blame for Stalin's action, religion is not to blame for people's actions who do what they want. If you judge with double standars you will be judged with double standards.

Did the communists stand up and loudly declare that what they were doing was done in the name of atheism? I don't think they did.

I never judge I debate. I am an apatheist. I don't care one way or the other about religion.

Until someone comes out and literally says that the did it because atheism told them to then there is a difference. I never said all religious folk were to blame. I said religion is used as the banner for many atrocities. That does not impart blame on anyone who has not commited the act in question nor impart blame on the religion as a whole. It is a statement of fact.

[Odovacar]

Did the communists stand up and loudly declare that what they were doing was done in the name of atheism? I don't think they did.

They did not. They did it because of communism which is atheist.
Atheism has no real meaning aside of "someone who thinks ther is no upper being-deity, God, there aren't gods)
Aside of this "atheism" in itself means nothing particular.

That's why no one commits anything bad or good in the name of atheism.
But atheist ideologies do commit right or wrong.

The argument that communism was somehow not atheist is ridiculous. It was materialist and atheist.

In the People's Republic of Hungary socialism was the official ideology and I wasnt baptised simply because my dad was a soldier who must be "ex officio" atheist as a marxist-leninist.

[Ciabhán]

No, that conclusion does not follow. Atheism itself isn't a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people fight, die, or kill for. Being killed by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness.
People were killed in communist nations for a lot of different reasons. Some were communists who disagreed with those in power and were killed because of that. Some were anti-communists opposed the government and were killed for that. Some were simply in the way or inconvenient and were killed for that. These are political disagreements that people were being killed over, not murder in the name of atheism.
But weren't a lot of people killed because they were Christian? Certainly — but not simply because they were Christian. Communists typically regarded religious organizations as a hinderance towards the creation of a worker's paradise. Some religious groups also opposed the communists. Once again, we are generally looking at political issues, not a question of atheism.
Even if some people were killed simply because they followed a religion, it does not follow that they were killed in the name of atheism. Why? Because atheism is not inherently opposed to religion: it is possible to be both an atheist and religious and some religions are themselves atheistic. Atheism also isn't a belief system or ideology which can, by itself, inspire people to do things — good or bad.
To understand this better, consider times in the past when religion has been involved with violence — the Inquisition would be good. How many people were killed during the Inquisition in the name of theism? None. Those doing the killing acted not because of theism, but rather because of Christian doctrines. The belief system is what inspired people to act (sometimes for good, sometimes for ill). The single belief of theism, however, did not.
Similarly, communism certainly inspired people to act and gave them motivations to do certain things, but atheism — which is the absence of a belief and not even a belief itself — did not. The assumption that people in Russia and China were killed merely on account of atheism is based upon two other myths: first, that atheism is itself some sort of philosophy or belief system which can motivate people, and second that atheism is somehow interchangeable with the actual belief system of communism. It also pretends that all the various elements of communist totalitarianism were irrelevant to what happened — which is utter nonsense. The aforementioned parallel explains why this response is not one which religious theists can use to deny their religion's responsibility for violence in the past. Atheism and theism may not themselves be sufficient to justify violence and murder (or good behavior, for that matter), but belief systems which incorporate them are more than sufficient. Communism (or at least certain forms of it) can be blamed for communist violence; Christianity (or at least certain forms of it) can also be blamed for Christian violence. As a belief system with specific doctrines that were openly held up as justifying or sanctioning violence, religion must be held responsible for the violence committed in its name.




Holywalloftext...........Wow that turned out to be longer than I expected. Sorry :p



The synopsis. Atheism and Theism are not responsible for any actions. The belief systems that incorporate them are. So communism not atheism is to blame, religion not theism is to blame.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

When it comes to Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, it's something of a chicken and an egg argument regarding whether their crimes were inspired by their atheism. They certainly killed many people because those people were believers. And this was at least partly because Communism was meant to be atheistic and so fervent believers had to be crushed or eradicated. But did they do these things because they were atheists or because they were communists and therefore pursued an ideological "ideal" that was meant to be, amongst other things, atheistic?

Personally, I don't think it matters either way. Dawkins is wrong to try to dodge the implications of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot and yet try to play the "theism is dangerous" card when it comes to similar mass murders inspired by religion. All these things prove is that some humans are black and white ideologues who will kill for a ideological formula, others are despots who will use any ideology for power over others, even if that means killing and torturing and others are just bastards and sociopaths who use murderous ideologies to allow them to do things that would otherwise see them locked up. If these ideologies are religious, humans are perfectly capable of making up political, economic or nationalistic ones. The results are much the same.

This is why I can't get excited by these evangelical atheists, like Dawkins, who think making religion disappear will make the world a better place. I find this rather naive. I suspect if religion disappeared tomorrow the sum total of opression, ignorance, violence and terror in the world wouldn't change one iota.

What does annoy me, however, is people trying to pretend Hitler was an atheist. He was not. That makes about as much sense as saying Hitler was Chinese. Hitler believed in God and despised atheism - end of story.

[SigniferOne]

No, that conclusion does not follow. Atheism itself isn't a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people fight, die, or kill for.

This is wrong. Atheism is a denial of religion and therefore a denial of any moral principles that originate from religion. So it isn't something that people would fight, die, or kill for, but it is something that would allow people to fight, die, or kill more easily.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

They did not. They did it because of communism which is atheist.
Atheism has no real meaning aside of "someone who thinks ther is no upper being-deity, God, there aren't gods)
Aside of this "atheism" in itself means nothing particular.

That's why no one commits anything bad or good in the name of atheism.
But atheist ideologies do commit right or wrong.

The argument that communism was somehow not atheist is ridiculous. It was materialist and atheist.

In the People's Republic of Hungary socialism was the official ideology and I wasnt baptised simply because my dad was a soldier who must be "ex officio" atheist as a marxist-leninist.

That's right.

I like the idea that nobody killed for "atheism", but for "atheistic ideologies", such as Communism. Similarly, nobody kills for "Theism", but rather for "theistic" religions and ideologies, like Catholicism.

What I keep saying to you is that those communists didn't declare they were killing for atheism, and killed because of atheism, because of abolition of all social and moral constraints.

Social and moral constraints exist regardless of Religion.

No, I'm saying that as a matter of fact, religious people in the 20th century have been more moral than atheist people.

Certainly not. And even less throughout previous history.

Religion elevates man to something special and worthy while athiesm either brings man down or animals up to the same level. So in my view as a christian i believe the life of man to be sacred and holy. To athiests im a slab of meat no more special then the fly outside my window.

I consider myself to be very special, thank you.

And @TG, I agree that Hitler definitely had a very religious background.

[SigniferOne]

I am tired to hear Theists, generally Christians, repeating their old vitriol that the Holocaust and the tons of crimes committed by modern authoritarian regimes, mostly Communist ones, were made in the name of "Atheism".

The difference between the Genocide committed by theists and atheists is the main essence of the business that unfortunately most don't get. St. Bartholemy's Night in XVI century France was made in the name of Catholicism. The Khmer Rouge Massacre was made in the name of Communism, not "Atheism".

Look I'm sympathetic to your argument, but all you need to do is to just open the Communist Manifesto, or Das Kapital, to see that atheism was not only instrumental but fundamental to the very core of Communism's philosophy. That's why they tried to banish and eradicate religion anywhere they found it. So you're right, it wouldn't be correct to say that they did anything in the name of atheism, but it would be correct to say that they did it because they were atheists.

[Rich86]

It's all very well trying to give atheism the same status as a religion due to beliefs (or lack of) so that you can then bash it - but by that logic let's also argue that everyone who doesn't believe in the tooth fairy is connected, and so any murderous acts they commit is done in the name of "we dont believe in the tooth-fairyism."

Atheism is the belief that there is no God/higher power. That is all it is - there is nothing else to it. If an atheist goes on a killing spree you're going to have a hard time arguing it was done in the name of atheism. Even if an atheist screams "y'arghhhhhhhh take that you religious swine!" and kills some Christians - screaming out about how his actions are in the name of atheism that would not make sense - there is nothing about atheism that promotes killing people.

And no, I would not say in every case a religious person commiting a murder is doing it in the name of religion - however some do commit murder in the name of religion.